Kramer blasphemy?

[MCB67]

"Turd" is right Rick, but I guess we shouldn't expect too much from a kid who comes to a Kramer forum and says it's strange that we like guitars with Floyds. LOL!

[errbt]

"Well, they say it's kinda fright'nin' how this younger generation swings."

"Have you seen Junior's grades?!?"

Now, Mintchip, you need to understand that each generation of music was influenced by the last. You can play all the "stereotypical" music you want but if you really want a lesson find out who the influences on YOUR favorite musicians were.

Yep, and often their favorites and influences may leave you scratching your head at first, because the best artists move beyond their influences to create something new and unique, which in turn inspires new generations of young fans. I've found nothing broadens my musical palette more than digging into music history, often through the ears of my favorite musicians and who their influences were. Look at it this way: even if it turns out you don't like what you hear, you can learn to respect it, and expanding one's awareness of the much bigger picture of music and music history (which, it turns out, is quite a bit bigger than metal, or hard rock, or rock, or whatever size one chooses to place the limit of their scope) is, IMO, never a bad thing.

The universe is a big place. Turns out there may even be enough room for each and every form of music to coexist...

Well, except for Country. (I kid, I kid - I actually like plenty of rock artists that cross over into country playing style, and the sound of pedal steel gets me every time; it's only cliched country singing inflection, especially by male singers, than usually annoys me. The best part is that I can just not listen, as opposed to attacking it and wishing it didn't exist. Well, most of the time ).

[withoutasound]

Geez, this thread has turned into a turd. "My music is better!". "No, mine is!". Too funny!

I think it was a turd to begin with!

[DarthPhineas]

I agree Darth. It is far too easy for younger folks to generalize because they weren't there to witness the evolution of the genre. The 80s were indeed a wild time for guitar rock. There were several diverging lines all with similar roots from the 70's. Kiss, Alice Cooper, Sabbath, and Van Halen would give birth to the NEW era of rock. Metal bands such as Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, and Motor Head went one way while Loverboy, Motle Crue, and Night Ranger went another. (also have to throw Styx in there) Eddie Van Halen inspired the early shredding guitarists to turn a simple guitar solo into a spectacle that gave birth to the "Guitar Gods" race. The recording industry are the ones guilty of creating what is now labeled "Glam" Rock. also referred to as the LA Rock Scene. Motly Crue were one of the first. Even though they were from NJ Bon Jovi fit in well with the LA mold. Poisen, Twisted Sister and the like were products of the trend. Lets not forget Quiet Riot. Meanwhile groups like Metalica and Megadeath were a middle ground between the driving guitar sounds of Heavy Metal and the LA sound. The trouble is that record execs are in it for the money so what ever trend was popular became what all the labels wanted to copy. pretty soon the market was filled with cookie cutter bands wearing the same cloths, hairstyles, etc. In the 80s I used to joke about the hair bands. At the height of the copy cat era (mid to late 80s) most bands had all black hair except for the singer who was blonde or the singer had black hair and the band were blonde.
another LA sound birth was Guns N Roses. Back then all the new guitarists and bands managed to introduce plenty of new sounds and styles. Oh yeah, and almost all of them used standard E tuning.
Sadly the industry drove listeners to other forms of rock because they flooded the market with too much of the same thing. Then came the Seattle sound and Grunge.

Now, Mintchip, you need to understand that each generation of music was influenced by the last. You can play all the "stereotypical" music you want but if you really want a lesson find out who the influences on YOUR favorite musicians were.

ah. you agree? the old Jedi mind trick still works. good. heh!

but yeah, look at the bands that are still making it on the tour circuit today... the butt metal hairbands. Poison. Leppard - influenced by 70s glam. Crue - influenced by KISS, among others. Bon Jovi - influenced by the Jersey scene: Springsteen and Southside Johnny. even VH hobbles out for a tour every now and again - clearly influenced by 50s/60s rock.

and I'll readily acknowledge the Sabbath 'Heaven And Hell' if only for Vinny Appice. lol!

[cullenszoo]

ah. you agree? the old Jedi mind trick still works. good. heh!

These aren't the Kramers your looking fo.....Hey! CUT THAT OUT!!

[puddy]

Just considering the signature models from the 80's there are lots of styles that Kramer guitars were used for... Paul Dean - Lover boy. Night Swan - Vivian Campbell Dio, Whitesnake, Def Leppard. Elliot Easton from "The Cars" Van Halen, Motley Crue, Danger Danger, Bon Jovi, Cinderella... You name it Kramer guitars can play it. Hell, I play in a club band that plays anything from B-52's from G-n-R to Van Morrison to Metallica and I normally do it all on a Kramer. I think the guitar is limitless - The player? Well that's a different story.

[Del Hudson]

I guess that I should start off by apologizing to my Forum bros for making a dumb statement in my first post. After listening to everyone’s responses, I now realize that a Kramer is a Kramer no matter who it was made by. My choice of words and what I meant to say didn’t come out correctly. All I was saying was that the values of pre 1990 Kramers would greatly be affected if they were modified in any way. Since the Gibby Kramers can’t seem to hold their value and aren’t very collectable, I see no problem in changing their pups or customizing them to fit your desired needs. I guess that I am a bit of a Kramer snob when it comes to the vintage models. If they didn’t have their Duncans and Floyds, I wouldn’t buy them or I would have to restore them to their former glory. Once again, I am sorry for offending my fellow Forum Bros.

Switching gears. I would like to thank “Darkside Darth” for coming to my rescue when I put my foot into my mouth. Your comedic humor was enjoyed throughout your posts. I have to side with you on the George Lynch issue. I used to idolize this guy while I was cutting my teeth in the 80’s. I finally got to meet him about two years ago and was I disappointed. Other fans were telling how great he was and he said, “I know”. What a jerk. His performance that night was marginal at best. It was like he was going through the motions and couldn’t wait to get off the stage. I don’t even like his newer stuff. I guess you have to respect a guitarist’s new creative direction, but he’s going down a road that I’m not willing to follow. I can’t stand his newer “Voodoo Child” sound. That is just my opinion, so please don’t crucify me if you happen to like it. Just as Gilmore needed Roger Waters to challenge him, George needs Don Dokken to say, “that sucks George”. Out of creative tension came some great songs. Even though they hated each other’s guts, they never realized how their compromise benefited them both.

Sorry for the rant and I think that this “turd of a thread” will take on a new direction. At least it has been very entertaining over the past week.

[Heinz]

I think we're all good now...

I still think a pickup swap doesn't really constitute a real mod though. When I bought my old Nightswan it was all original in every way. I had it set up with EMGs to suit my taste while I had it, but when I later traded it off, you could not tell anything was done to it. The original pickups were put back in with the original pots, jack, wiring and pretty much most of the original solder, too, LOL. It's an easily reversible change.

[errbt]

Just considering the signature models from the 80's there are lots of styles that Kramer guitars were used for... Paul Dean - Lover boy. Night Swan - Vivian Campbell Dio, Whitesnake, Def Leppard. Elliot Easton from "The Cars" Van Halen, Motley Crue, Danger Danger, Bon Jovi, Cinderella... You name it Kramer guitars can play it. Hell, I play in a club band that plays anything from B-52's from G-n-R to Van Morrison to Metallica and I normally do it all on a Kramer. I think the guitar is limitless - The player? Well that's a different story.

Agreed 100%, and your band sounds very similar to mine (in fact we play songs by three of the four bands you mention covering, and plan on adding a Metallica song soon). I bring two Kramer Focus 3000s to each show along with either my Epi Les Paul or BC Rich Mockingbird. The Kramers are versatile enough to sound great on just about everything, and I could easily play the entire 40 song night, spanning VH to Radiohead, Sabbath to Duran Duran, and Pink Floyd to Indigo Girls (yes I said Indigo Girls) on them. That said, I do choose to play the LP/Mockingbird for the G 'N' R stuff among others, about 10 songs at most, because they're fun to play and have that certain, though more limited, sound. I would never want to play the whole night on them though. Yes I could mod them for coil splitting and Floyds (or spend much more $$ on a model with those features), but when I can get a Kramer with all of that, in great shape, for $200-$300 on the 'bay, Kramer is the no-brainer for me!

[MCB67]

Hey Del, I think we've all made a "dumb statement" a time or two, but it takes some brains to realize it sometimes and at least you did. More than that, it takes guts to admit that you might have been mistaken and offer up an open apology like yours. Not that it's probably worth a whole lot, but I respect you for that.

Kramer-on, Bro.

[Del Hudson]

Thanks for understanding guys.

[cullenszoo]

Del, I knew exactly what you meant. It's kinda like the MIA Fender Strats and the MIM made. They are both "Fender" brand but everyone looks at the MIM as second class. When I found out the Striker 422 I bought off amazon wasn't an 80s Kramer it wasn't as appealing to me so I sold it. It was well built, played and looked great but, I wanted an actual Kramer made in the 80s. For most of us we are emotionally attached to that time period.
In my case the first Kramer I saw in person was in a small shop. It was 1986 and the Kramers were THE rock guitar to have. I gazed at it and fell in love. The price tag kept it way out of my range since my parents weren't about to buy me a guitar that expensive. By the time I was on my own with my own money the Kramers were all but gone from stores. Buying a music yo era or new Kramer lacks that emotional link for me so even though it IS a Kramer it's NOT an original Kramer.

[DarthPhineas]

Switching gears. I would like to thank “Darkside Darth” for coming to my rescue when I put my foot into my mouth. Your comedic humor was enjoyed throughout your posts. I have to side with you on the George Lynch issue. I used to idolize this guy while I was cutting my teeth in the 80’s. I finally got to meet him about two years ago and was I disappointed. Other fans were telling how great he was and he said, “I know”. What a jerk. His performance that night was marginal at best. It was like he was going through the motions and couldn’t wait to get off the stage. I don’t even like his newer stuff. I guess you have to respect a guitarist’s new creative direction, but he’s going down a road that I’m not willing to follow. I can’t stand his newer “Voodoo Child” sound. That is just my opinion, so please don’t crucify me if you happen to like it. Just as Gilmore needed Roger Waters to challenge him, George needs Don Dokken to say, “that sucks George”. Out of creative tension came some great songs. Even though they hated each other’s guts, they never realized how their compromise benefited them both.

you have taken your first step on the path to the dark side. soon your journey will be complete.

yeah, what that guy needs is a producer. look at the stuff that he's done in his garage and you can spot the crap floating from a mile away. Pilson seems to really keep things tempered and headed in the right direction, but I'll never know as I won't pay another cent to anything that'll go in his pocket. guys like Satch and MacAlping and Vai can get away with heading in new creative directions. a lot of the 80s shredders seem to understand how their bread is buttered and have no issue with cashing in on that annual summer tour...and some guys can't and have to burn copies of their catalog in their garage to sell on their website to keep the mortgage paid. a lot of bands really can't get along, but still manage to keep it going... and we're talking about bands that were/are on a lower tier than Dokken was/is.

now can we get back to poking fun at that kid that started this turd of a thread with his ill-informed comments about metal and glam? heh!

[Baretta Bolz]

I don't think Kramer is ONLY for Heavy and Hard music... By the way , I Love Kramer for EVH , Mick Mars , Vivian , Sambora ect.. but , Sometimes , I Play my Kramers for Blues.. and .. it's so coooool With a Baretta or a Pacer , you have so many possibility ! Personnaly , I Play Heavy/Hair/ Metal , Hard FM , Hard Rock , Blues ect.. every style where the guitar part is good !

Sorry for my English , I'm a French Kramer Maniax :p

[cullenszoo]

I don't think Kramer is ONLY for Heavy and Hard music... By the way , I Love Kramer for EVH , Mick Mars , Vivian , Sambora ect.. but , Sometimes , I Play my Kramers for Blues.. and .. it's so coooool With a Baretta or a Pacer , you have so many possibility ! Personnaly , I Play Heavy/Hair/ Metal , Hard FM , Hard Rock , Blues ect.. every style where the guitar part is good !

Sorry for my English , I'm a French Kramer Maniax :p

Your english is just fine. you spoke in the language we all understand! hehe

[DarthPhineas]

I don't think Kramer is ONLY for Heavy and Hard music... By the way , I Love Kramer for EVH , Mick Mars , Vivian , Sambora ect.. but , Sometimes , I Play my Kramers for Blues.. and .. it's so coooool With a Baretta or a Pacer , you have so many possibility ! Personnaly , I Play Heavy/Hair/ Metal , Hard FM , Hard Rock , Blues ect.. every style where the guitar part is good !

Sorry for my English , I'm a French Kramer Maniax :p

right on, man. look at the 80s artist list from Kramer and you'll see most genres covered... well, maybe not country/western, but I don't think that counts anyway... heh! and I agree, a Baretta and a Pacer and you've got the main bases covered. but don't forget the Kramer Liberty. you French are all about liberty, aren't you? ;-)

[86barettaguy]

I don't think Kramer is ONLY for Heavy and Hard music...

Except the MusicYO era kramers. They were made to do only one thing: Rock Hard!

Now, confusing hair metal (which was simply called "metal" back in the day) with glam, that is blasphemy. I don't see pickup and hardware swaps as a problem, but I would expect to pay less if the guitar had actually been down-graded as a result.

My opinion on the current range of kramers? They are kramers although some might be more suited for an Epiphone emblem. And some models are discontinued after too short of a production run. And please introduce a proper-ish pointy-head baretta (gibson pickup and kramer-stamped licensed floyd would all be fine if the price was on par with the pacers) for me to save up for?

[Full Crib]

Whats wrong with having a whole bunch of guitars? Get as many as you can while you're still young cuz once the bills start piling up, "free" money is hard to come by.

Amen to that brother Six....the floyd, duncans, pointy headstocks......uhhhh ....that is what makes the Kramer.


....The REAL Crib!!!!

[MintChip]

I read most of these posts guys, It wasn't trying to incite anything between new kramer guys and old kramer guys, and I understand that not all the 80's bands were glam. I like Dokken, Ratt, the Crue, Def Leppard Faster Pussycat, Cinderella and even a few poison songs. They all might not have been considered glam or hair metal back then but today they all get lumped together regardless.
I can't think of any other guitar brand where there is such a divide between old and new players, it seems silly to me.

[cullenszoo]

I read most of these posts guys, It wasn't trying to incite anything between new kramer guys and old kramer guys, and I understand that not all the 80's bands were glam. I like Dokken, Ratt, the Crue, Def Leppard Faster Pussycat, Cinderella and even a few poison songs. They all might not have been considered glam or hair metal back then but today they all get lumped together regardless.
I can't think of any other guitar brand where there is such a divide between old and new players, it seems silly to me.

I wouldn't say the divide runs deeper. I would say the disappointment in Gibsons "reboot" of Kramer has betrayed a large segment of the die hard fans. While the younger generation is just getting to know the brand the young tend to see all things "new and improved" as better. Us older guys think they should keep things more "the way they used to be." I guess both generations are right and wrong. Its just a matter of perspective. For the time being I'm just glad the brand is alive and kicking. As long as Kramers are being made there is still hope they will see the error of their ways. hehe