New French President

[bongano]

And someone is earning for sure from this crisis.

[fett]

Now, it's the Evil Empire. Hell, it's Clone Wars. How could they do this to us? I'm reading a bunch of posters that seem to be doing alot of whining. One whines when the Game doesn't go my way. I getting a bit bored. You guys have the power. Vote. Pay your taxes. Stop depending on your government. That's a sucker's game. Is it? You seem to be all over the factional BS. The last time I checked, you think the EU is bogus. I don't know whether it is or isn't. "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive."

[amerturk]

Pay your taxes. Stop depending on your government.

That is part of the problem Fett....the EU makes a lot of choices without public support or approval...

[fett]

Well, these guys aren't there without approval. What? They just walked in while you were sleeping. Or taking advantage of the pipe you were smoking. You guys crack me up. You are all over how the people are getting screwed. Of course you are getting fucked over. You put them there.

[amerturk]

Go take your med's Fett and call me in the morning.

[fett]

What? This thread is important. Sure, I'm off my ass. At least, I know where my ass is. There aren't any Meds. We are living that. You just wait and see.

[KickstartMyHeart]

What the hell? I find it fascinating that all of us had a great time spending our future. I didn't hear any alarm bells. Why should there have been? No need. As long as everyone was having a grand time playing the Game, life was good. The last time I checked, everybody who is posting here is an adult. We all played the Game. We put these guys where they are. Or we just let them walk all over us because we weren't paying attention. All this ragging is pointless. Your job is to change it. But you can't. You are too busy playing the Blame Game. We are all to blame.

Thank you for nailing that one down to the point.

And what with the persons earning their share out of this: It is at least someone like the (at least in this thread) highly praised and recommended George Soros who has long since laid his bets and now laughs his ass off and throws oil in an already raging fire.

[KickstartMyHeart]

It's in English. Luckily we can all read and speak it after WWII and not some other languages.

Stefano, Stefano, I can´t say that something like this is in the least surprising coming from you. I don´t know how other people´s judgement around here tells them, but to me you are tiresome and I´m fed up with your relentless "exclamations". Your points are getting old fast. To be more to the point, they grew weak already 4 weeks ago.

Since you are such a biggy in the blaming-game, I´m trying to get down to your level of speech, not sure if I can get as poisonous as you (and frankly, I won´t try much).

There is a term for people like you and that is "fascistoid agitator". That is a pretty hard word and I´m happy that there aren´t that much running around in the so-called free world. Those persons are a pretty good example for going from brown-shirt-head-stomping to three-piece-suite-smartypants-talk-deceivers. One thing those persons have in common is that they lack anything that comes close to a spine. Hiding behind words, throwing out dirt and stones at others but never stand up and do something to actually help people (that is when they talk the muscle into doing the heavy load work).

Say, Stefano, have you ever in the past 5 years done at least one thing to help people in this crisis, especially the kids that you mentioned earlier (i.e. working in a soup-kitchen, selling a guitar for charity, doing a gig for the same reason, help collect clothes or food, ... anything?) or were you to busy to blame the "ugly germans" for, ..., yeah, what for do you blame us? You strike me as one of those guys that were bullied around on the schoolyard (you whine, piss and moan at least like the very next sissy, pardon my french). Was it a german boy kickin´ your butt around, prying a toy from your hands or walking away with your girl-friend? What is it, that you are holding against my country and my people? Spill it or suck it up and get over it. This a not about the Euro-crisis for you, for you this is a welcome opportunity to raise hell about germany for whatever shady reasons that you left lying in the dark. You are fighting a personal vendetta. And that, my friend, is one sorry-ass-excuse for the arsoning you´re doing here. Are you spreading your poison around on other forums too, Stefano? I bet you do.

One thing I have learned early in life (yeah, that´s a good thing being a german, you´ll get reminded of your history and the sins of your grandfather´s generation every day) is that the best thing to do with agitators is to rip the masks off of their faces to show the world what poor living jokes such people really are. The very best thing about your replies to this thread is: You did that job yourself! Someone said a couple days back that you´ve shown your true colors as of yet. And that´s about it. Your replies are always the same old same old (the "sources" you claim are mostly the "he-said-she-said"-sort btw.). "The ugly germans ... this" or "The ugly germans ... that". Jeez, man, what separates you from the talented agitators is that you are just a pitiful one-trick-pony. Sorry to say, but there´s not much substance behind your words.

To the admins of KF and the fellow forum bros: If you feel or see fit, that this words qualify for a ban, do so. If you want to delete this reply, go on. But there´s a line between a healthy discussion and a very sick way of going for someones throat. That line was crossed some time ago. I tried it in reasonable words more than once. Offered my hand and did my best to keep my calm. But if there is no chance to get through with reason or rhyme, I have to say so.

Thank you and greets,

Christian

[bongano]

First of all. What I do in my own private life to help people it's something I don't write in public just to boast.
I understand this can be off you cultural views but that's it.
I also understand that in your cultural view it can look weird someone can hold a critical position against world's unfairness without having a self-interest. Everyone can see if my sources are reliable or not, no matter what you say.
Hard to face off for you, but today a "German problem" exists in Europe and people with historical memory don't want old ghosts to revive. You have to deal with it.
And for the rest, I beg mods not to cancel anything or ban anyone.
It's a perfect example of what a guilty conscience leads to write.

[ullathorne]

Stefano.. That's not a far response to Christian. Guilty conscience?? What's that all about?

Thing is Stefano... If this mad obsession of yours does come true and we see the start of German occupation in Europe again. What are you going to do???

You'll be on the German side one day.. The other side the next .... Only kidding. Or maybe not. As history does tend to show facts.

I'm keeping this thread open as I think it's important.

Just so glad we never joined the euro to tell you the truth. I'm not really up to speed with it, I think it's just information overload from the TV etc. I'm just bored with it all... The sooner it all does what it's going to do the better... Then we can move on and talk about less draining issues like X factor and other more important stuff

[bongano]

Thing is Stefano... If this mad obsession of yours does come true and we see the start of German occupation in Europe again. What are you going to do???

You'll be on the German side one day.. The other side the next .... Only kidding. Or maybe not. As history does tend to show facts.

German occupation is already on, if you haven't realized it yet.
Again, today wars are fought with money not with weapons anymore.
Today Greece is under attack, tomorrow will be someone else's turn.
It's not just a mad obsession, trust me, it's a common feeling spreading here and in all Europe every day more.
And I see what you mean. During WWII Italy was a German ally and then an US ally. But you're forgetting that in between there was a popular riot against Mussolini and German invaders that led to Mussolini death and to German's retreat. I mean: popular. Armed common people, hiding in woodlands, underground living. Fighting against invaders and dictators.
Those people who then became our Republican Constituent Assembly.
Don't confuse governors with people. First ones we would cut their heads off are our own governors, puppets in other's hands, don't worry bout that.

[bongano]

Just to point out how media are distorting data and facts, just go here http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS and see how many actual annual hours are worked in Europe by each country.

Just to confront, year 2010:

Germany, considered the ONLY worker country in Europe (at least by German people)= 1419 worked hours per worker
Greece, considered the lazy country, origin of all European's evil= 2109 worked hours per worker
Italy, yeah, sun bathing, mafia, pizza and mandolino= 1778 worked hours per worker

Funny how FACTS contradict information, uh?

And just to lighten the discussion, a little humor.

[ullathorne]

It's a great photo... It made me laugh as soon as I saw it, and knew of someone who might like it
Great words Stefano. "don't confuse people with Governors"

You can't hold every one of the 80 million or so German people the same as its politicians...
The politicians we have in this country are mostly only in it for themselves.. They say one thing and do absolutely nothing. But I always vote, so I'm entitled to my opinion. In the UK the non voters are the massive majority.... That's scary

[KramerAmsterdam]

AM glad I am Dutch..according to that Iam with the lowest hours annual...1377 annual per Dutchman/woman...I wonder how that is..if Greece works 2109...that's over 40 hours a week..everyweek of the year...??! Some people are working realy hard there..or they used the same people calculating national Greece deficit before 2009...

[Breizman]

Some people are working realy hard there..or they used the same people calculating national Greece deficit before 2009...

That's a good strike Remy
More seriously, if you click on the little red "i" on each country, you will see that the methods used to calculate those "working hours" are not consistent from one country to another. So actually, we can't compare anything.
In the case of Greece: "Data source(s) used -OECD National Accounts questionnaire reply" .... which basically means nothing

[Breizman]

What the hell? I find it fascinating that all of us had a great time spending our future. I didn't hear any alarm bells. Why should there have been? No need. As long as everyone was having a grand time playing the Game, life was good. The last time I checked, everybody who is posting here is an adult. We all played the Game. We put these guys where they are. Or we just let them walk all over us because we weren't paying attention. All this ragging is pointless. Your job is to change it. But you can't. You are too busy playing the Blame Game. We are all to blame.

Completely agree with you Fett. Way too much blame game on this thread. We all got here on our own, and all that happened in France, Italy, Greece and so on happened on the watch of democratically elected governments (to answer Stefano's current concern). Those who go on accusing the EU officials to be unelected fail to remember that those guys are nominated by the same governments we elect, and thus follow the interests of their governments.

[ullathorne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gm9q...e_gdata_player

Just to let you know. This is the guy who's party I vote for

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLw...e_gdata_player

[bongano]

So you are talking about so-called "democracy", right?
That democracy who didn't allow Greek people to decide by themselves to accept or not IMF "helps"?
That democracy who didn't allow Italy to vote for its own Government?
That democracy who NEVER asked people if they were willing to join Euro or not? (and when asked people answered "NO!" but those polls weren't even considered)
That democracy who nominated Eurobureaucrats on their chairs with underground money-based agreements?
Yeah, who the hell those bureaucrats are?! And what are they useful for if everything in Europe is decided by Mrs Merkel? I never voted for Mrs Merkel, but today when she says Europe has to do something, we have to obey and shut up or the day after we'll be punished with more taxes and welfare cuts. "Yes Mrs Merkel, your orders!"
Is this the "democracy" you are talking about?

Oh men, I wish I have a Nigel Farage in my poor Country.

[Kostas Dee]

Well that was also the plan,the Germans must believe that the Greeks are corrupted,we Greeks must believe that the Germans want to burn us alive,the Dutch too etc etc
Its all perfect at the elitists offices around the world

I wrote that before,i do have a great respect for the northern citizens of this so called union but they did nothing more than being "lucky" enough to have borned up there,its that simple.

Citizens have no clue of whats going on..

[KramerAmsterdam]

Also..from what I know is the Dutch are ahead in parttime jobs. Many women are part of the workfroce as well..though a steady job , less hours. So if you ask all workers..you will have 10's of %'s of them telling they work 24-32 hours a week...and that will cut down on average hours made.

But like Erwan said...with these backgrounds of measuring, impossible to compare.

Kostas, trust me , as Dutch man, pro Euro though, I do feel for the average Greek working man and woman. Everybody want's to have a regular job and a decent wage. And many of us do understand the 'average Joe' is not to blame for this crap Greece/Euroland is in.

And for what Germany concerns..About about interfering..They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't....


Remy

[LiamMaru]

Just to point out how media are distorting data and facts, just go here http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS and see how many actual annual hours are worked in Europe by each country.

Just to confront, year 2010:

Germany, considered the ONLY worker country in Europe (at least by German people)= 1419 worked hours per worker
Greece, considered the lazy country, origin of all European's evil= 2109 worked hours per worker
Italy, yeah, sun bathing, mafia, pizza and mandolino= 1778 worked hours per worker

Funny how FACTS contradict information, uh?[/IMG]

All those facts show is that Germans are really efficient, which isn't really news.

Germany is a country with a brilliantly efficient service/manufacturing economy and a well regulated banking sector. Greece is an economic basket case who's economy tanked because of mass tax evasion. If you think the Austerity is harsh then you've no idea what a massive cluster-fuck a return to the Drachma would be.

As for your own country, it got run into the ground by crooks like Berlusconi (who, by the way, was democratically elected) and a southern half which is economic dead-weight. Interesting fact, 7% of Italian GDP is from organised crime. Another interesting fact, they don't pay tax on that.

For the euro to work properly would require further integration of the disparate European economies: it's really an all or nothing idea. And if you were to go 'all', then it would likely be to the benefit of all involved.

This dude gets it:

Completely agree with you Fett. Way too much blame game on this thread. We all got here on our own, and all that happened in France, Italy, Greece and so on happened on the watch of democratically elected governments (to answer Stefano's current concern). Those who go on accusing the EU officials to be unelected fail to remember that those guys are nominated by the same governments we elect, and thus follow the interests of their governments.

[Kostas Dee]

Why everyone is talking about taxes? Ofcourse we pay taxes,are you out of your minds?

Here's an example -

I pay 300 euros per month for gas,we buy one lt of gas for 1.70 euros.Around 70% of it goes to the goverment

10 years ago we were buyin' gas for 0.67 euros per lt,now its 1 euro more expensive

10 years ago i was earning 35%-40% more money that i'm earning now,i speak for the 95% of my people

My "power" to buy things have shrinked at least to 35%-40%

Money do not moving in cyrcles anymore

Where the fuck shall i find money to pay at the end of the year for the extra large taxes that the Troikans demand from me?

PS The list of "mini" taxes that we're paying everyday is gigantic,this is why WE DONT HAVE ANY MORE MONEY to pay,the gorvement is ripping us off every fn day of the year..COME ON PEOPLE GIVE US A FUCKING BREAK

[KramerAmsterdam]

Kostas, the greek pay taxes, regular joe anyway, but, if the head of the greek taxoffice states thevtax revenues are limited, what are we to think? That post + interview link i posted already. 10 years ago our gas prices were lower too... No idea how you made more 10 years ago, i know my salary, and iam average, always been, doubled over the last 10 years.

[Bastardo]

Why everyone is reffering the thing about taxes? Ofcourse we pay taxes,are you out of your minds?

Here's an example -

I pay 300 euros per month for gas,we buy one lt of gas for 1.70 euros.Around 70% of it goes to the goverment

10 years ago we were buyin' gas for 0.67 euros per lt,now its 1 euro more expensive

10 years ago i was earning 35%-40% more money that i'm earning now,i speak for the 95% of my people

My "power" to buy things have shrinked at least to 35%-40%

Money do not moving in cyrcles anymore

Where the fuck shall i find money to pay at the end of the year for the extra large taxes that the Troikans demand from me?

PS The list of "mini" taxes that we're paying everyday is gigantic,this is why WE DONT HAVE ANY MORE MONEY to pay,the gorvement is ripping us off every fn day of the year..COME ON PEOPLE GIVE US A FUCKING BREAK

Here same scenario, our VAT is 23 % and raising it to 25 % is not out of the equation yet....

Fuel...Please dont even remind me about it...

More...Electricity, Water, Gas everything raised...

Public Transports fares...raised

Bank interest rates...If they lend you money...skyrocketed

And the worst...Small bussiness closing the doors everyday, people getting fired etc...

Loosing your job will be your worst nightmare believe me...So employers tend to abuse of their working force...

If you are unemployed and if you are lucky to get a new job quick they will offer you less than you used to get 10 years ago...

So rough times here also Kostas...and no prevision when the storm will be over....Last time i checked the news Spain was on the ropes and that will rock the peninsula because Spain is a major client for our products and for our turism...We are selling more and more to Brazil, Angola, etc... but finding new markets takes time to a country that was addict to EU and believed in the project...

To all those guys that point their fingers to us, please do come here and i will trade places with you for 1 years then we talk...

Well its live and learn...

[bongano]

All those facts show is that Germans are really efficient, which isn't really news.

Korea also is a really efficient country but they work more that 2000 hours a year.
And as for the sources, why the heck a OECD self compiled questionnaire should be less reliable than one supplied from a Institut für Zrekeintescheustellsalkazzen? Both of them are data supplied from country's internal sources. You mean Greek or Italians are supplying fake data while Germans are honest?
What I want to mean is that the "Germans are working and you southern bitches are living on their efforts" is pure bullshit.

As for your own country, it got run into the ground by crooks like Berlusconi (who, by the way, was democratically elected) and a southern half which is economic dead-weight. Interesting fact, 7% of Italian GDP is from organised crime. Another interesting fact, they don't pay tax on that.

Yep, we have being screwed since years. Decades. We've had worse than Berlusconi, figure. But till we could manage our currency we were good. We could devalue it, print it, manage, let inflaction decrease or increase according to economy and to our needs and our capabilities. Now we are in the Euro cage and someone else is managing this in our place. That's the main issue we all are fighting against. We want to be arbiter of our destiny again.
Yep, we have a very well organized crime. They have no austerity policy blocking them They produce about 7% of our GDP. Not bad uh?
Well, they are nothing compared to Euro-bureaucrats crime producing 100% of their GDP stealing resources from southern countries. Over there organized crime is better organized than here.