New French President

[Bastardo]

From what i read in the internet Spain is down...Its official...Bail Out is on the way...

Bongano you guys in Italy must fasten yours seatbelts because the boat is going to rock a bit over there the next months....

[Kostas Dee]

.. No idea how you made more 10 years ago, i know my salary, and iam average, always been, doubled over the last 10 years.

Exactly,most of you guys have doubled your salaries and in the same time we are making 50% less than we used to,i told you 95% of Greeks lost around 500 euros per moth,average joe or not.

How i'm i suppose to pay double the taxes you're paying since i dont have any more fn money in my pocket? Its aint rocket science

Spain will be fked up no doubt about it,then its Italy and then its 1929 all over again

[bongano]

From what i read in the internet Spain is down...Its official...Bail Out is on the way...

Bongano you guys in Italy must fasten yours seatbelts because the boat is going to rock a bit over there the next months....

Yep, 100 billions € to Spanish banks.
At a 5% rate makes per year... well, it makes default

[Bastardo]

[LiamMaru]

Korea also is a really efficient country but they work more that 2000 hours a year.And as for the sources, why the heck a OECD self compiled questionnaire should be less reliable than one supplied from a Institut für Zrekeintescheustellsalkazzen? Both of them are data supplied from country's internal sources. You mean Greek or Italians are supplying fake data while Germans are honest? .

Those were OECD numbers...

Efficiency isn't just a word, it can be measured. Here's some more OECD numbers: In 2010, for every hour worked, Germany earned $53.60 worth of GDP. Italy, $43.90. Greece, $33.60. Korea, $27.20. What's not shown is that 20.92% of German GDP is from manufacturing compared to 16.78% in Italy (World Bank, 2011). The numbers are difficult to obtain from Greece, but it's somewhere in the realm of 10%. South Korea is 30.56%.

So, Germany make far more per unit of work that South Korea, despite also having a significant manufacturing base. No, the South Korean economy isn't particularly efficient compared to Germany, nor is Italy or Greece.

But till we could manage our currency we were good. We could devalue it, print it, manage, let inflaction decrease or increase according to economy and to our needs and our capabilities. Now we are in the Euro cage and someone else is managing this in our place. That's the main issue we all are fighting against. We want to be arbiter of our destiny again.

The reason your country in such massive debt is that it's legitimate business is badly over-regulated, many service industries are monopolised and corruption and organised crime is rife. Introducing the euro did much the same as it did to Greece, it exposed all the weaknesses in your economy. So no, the euro isn't the problem, it's a culture of mismanagement and corruption from elected officials and their unelected friends. And much like reintroducing the drachma, reintroducing the Lira will hurt you far more than fixing your political and business culture. Whether that's possible is another matter entirely, and at the end of the day yes, a return to the lira and the economic punch in the throat that equates to might just be the easiest way out.

[Satchboogie]

I'm just a low Filipino, but Bastardo, Bongano and Kostas seem like they are talking from the heart, not some bravado....I hope you and your families are ok

[bongano]

Those were OECD numbers...

Efficiency isn't just a word, it can be measured. Here's some more OECD numbers: In 2010, for every hour worked, Germany earned $53.60 worth of GDP. Italy, $43.90. Greece, $33.60. Korea, $27.20. What's not shown is that 20.92% of German GDP is from manufacturing compared to 16.78% in Italy (World Bank, 2011). The numbers are difficult to obtain from Greece, but it's somewhere in the realm of 10%. South Korea is 30.56%.

So, Germany make far more per unit of work that South Korea, despite also having a significant manufacturing base. No, the South Korean economy isn't particularly efficient compared to Germany, nor is Italy or Greece.

Exactly. Our salaries dropped down significantly in last 10 years. We have to work more in order to earn less.
Also, since the Euro came many of our factories were dismantled and transferred to eastern Europe where labor is cheaper due to Euro overrating. For production to be competitive in global market, factories have moved where labor, taxes and raw materials are cheaper (Romania, Hungary, Poland), where due to Euro integration there are no import duties, but still profits are in Euro.
I wouldn't call it inefficiency. It's an unfair economic policy due to the fact there's a single currency between countries that have different economies. It's what I'm saying since this thread started.

The reason your country in such massive debt is that it's legitimate business is badly over-regulated, many service industries are monopolised and corruption and organised crime is rife. Introducing the euro did much the same as it did to Greece, it exposed all the weaknesses in your economy. So no, the euro isn't the problem, it's a culture of mismanagement and corruption from elected officials and their unelected friends. And much like reintroducing the drachma, reintroducing the Lira will hurt you far more than fixing your political and business culture. Whether that's possible is another matter entirely, and at the end of the day yes, a return to the lira and the economic punch in the throat that equates to might just be the easiest way out.

Weird that our infamous corruption was here also before the Euro came. It was even bigger. But still we managed it when we were sovereign of our currency.
Our current government's first mission is to regain tax evasion and fight corruption but as you can see things aren't going better. The more government regains, the more our debt raises. So no, it's not JUST a corruption or tax evasion issue.
It's more a global Euro policy issue. Governments can regain all tax evasion or fight and dismantle corruption but this won't be enough if some sovereign debts are everyday under speculation attack and rates to be paid back are everyday higher. I mean, I'm happy my country corruption and organized crime are fought, If everyone will pay taxes we correct citizens will pay less, but this austerity and under strict observation balances policy is nothing if nothing will be done to increase economic growth and Euro financial integration. There's no way out: political, fiscal, financial and economical integration of Europe. That means mutuality between countries: who has more gives to who has less. This is exactly what Mrs Merkel doesn't want.
Alternative? Yes, every country back to its own currency and not paid back debts. Global defaults and 1929 big depression in the whole world. Is this what Mrs Merkel wants? We are ready.

[bongano]

I'm just a low Filipino, but Bastardo, Bongano and Kostas seem like they are talking from the heart, not some bravado....I hope you and your families are ok

No worries man, I think you've had a bad idea of what's happening here.
There's no fire on the roads, no armed people fighting, no thieves waiting for you behind the corner
People is going to cinemas, to the beach, every morning we wake up and go to work, children to school (well vacation time has just started) and everyday life is the same as always has been.
It's just we're worried bout our and our children's future and we don't want their future will be the same as our grandpa's during WWII.

[bongano]

So no, the euro isn't the problem, it's a culture of mismanagement and corruption from elected officials and their unelected friends. And much like reintroducing the drachma, reintroducing the Lira will hurt you far more than fixing your political and business culture.

I want to give you an example of how taxation works here. It's very different from the anglophone way so maybe something would be mislead when thinking to southern Europe countries' tax evasion.
First of all not everything you spend you can deduct from your tax declaration.
i.e. if your washing machine breaks and you need to fix it, you call the man and let's say pay him 100 €, that's not deductible.
So what happens. The man says: "Well, do you want to pay 120€ VAT included or 90€ with no invoice?"
Of course you say "Ok man, here's 90€ cash, thanks".
You save 30€ and the man saves about 40€ cause direct tax imposition here is around 47%.
One more example. If I buy a car I cannot deduct that expense from my tax declaration. It's a kind of "luxury" good. Doesn't matter if it's a FIAT 500 or a Lamborghini.
Now if I could deduct the purchase of a car or anything else from my earnings it would induce me to buy more and make economy run, right?
Deducting this expense would be also a push in economic growth, wouldn't it?
Now, imagine if everything you spend in the year you can deduct it from your tax declaration.
This to mean that also fiscal policy is a very important factor to fight tax evasion and to increase economy, not only what you call business culture.

[KickstartMyHeart]

I want to give you an example of how taxation works here. It's very different from the anglophone way so maybe something would be mislead when thinking to southern Europe countries' tax evasion.
First of all not everything you spend you can deduct from your tax declaration.
i.e. if your washing machine breaks and you need to fix it, you call the man and let's say pay him 100 €, that's not deductible.
So what happens. The man says: "Well, do you want to pay 120€ VAT included or 90€ with no invoice?"
Of course you say "Ok man, here's 90€ cash, thanks".
You save 30€ and the man saves about 40€ cause direct tax imposition here is around 47%.
One more example. If I buy a car I cannot deduct that expense from my tax declaration. It's a kind of "luxury" good. Doesn't matter if it's a FIAT 500 or a Lamborghini.
Now if I could deduct the purchase of a car or anything else from my earnings it would induce me to buy more and make economy run, right?
Deducting this expense would be also a push in economic growth, wouldn't it?
Now, imagine if everything you spend in the year you can deduct it from your tax declaration.
This to mean that also fiscal policy is a very important factor to fight tax evasion and to increase economy, not only what you call business culture.

First of all, this is considered a capital crime (called "tax evasion") and will get both of you some serious fine at least (or bunker if you persist). Second, what would be the point in making any private purchase tax-deductible? That is reserved for companies due to the p&l (i.e. the guy who repairs your washing machine, he´s able to deduct his purchases for the companiy because he is paying VAT himself, so that will or should be balanced out at years end). Can´t see any "crime" a government or administration is comitting by collecting its taxes; I can see a crime in a culture of the infamous "Fakelaki", tho. The difference to some other countries is, that the major part of the income taxes are withheld by the employer and sent directly to the local IRS. That way a lot of tax-collection takes place "wireless".

Regarding the "steep incline" of prices due to the Euro I can tell you, that anything from food to gas has at least doubled from the first logical second. Pretty thing for the vendors was the almost clean factor of 2 D-Mark per Euro. That made it easy to just change the currency sign and not the figures on the price tag. In combination with more than moderate salary-rises, which lay every year since 15 years lower than the inflation rate, that made it no joy-ride for us either. The only thing not going through the roof was apartment-rents, which make a big part of what we in germany have to pay from our salary.

Feel free to go on the streets and fight for Lira, Drachme, Escudo or Peseta. But that will be the most bitter victory, you will ever gain in your life. Take a good look at countries like Rumania, which is considerd to be the poorhouse of Europe, to get a feeling for it. When this deck will be dealt, people there will hire you for the low-paid jobs and not the other way around. This one is like the fairy in the tale says: "Be careful what you wish for, it might get true".

[bongano]

First of all, this is considered a capital crime (called "tax evasion") and will get both of you some serious fine at least (or bunker if you persist). Second, what would be the point in making any private purchase tax-deductible? That is reserved for companies due to the p&l (i.e. the guy who repairs your washing machine, he´s able to deduct his purchases for the companiy because he is paying VAT himself, so that will or should be balanced out at years end). Can´t see any "crime" a government or administration is comitting by collecting its taxes; I can see a crime in a culture of the infamous "Fakelaki", tho. The difference to some other countries is, that the major part of the income taxes are withheld by the employer and sent directly to the local IRS. That way a lot of tax-collection takes place "wireless".

Same here.
Employers' taxes are withheld at source. Self-employed and companies can deduct their expenses (work related) from their balances.
I was referring to everyday expenses. You go to market buying food, you deduct. You buy a new TV, you deduct.
This way it's buyer's interest to have invoice for what he buys and seller have to release invoice for everything he sells.
No more "black market", more sales figure, more economy flowing, more tax incoming.

Feel free to go on the streets and fight for Lira, Drachme, Escudo or Peseta. But that will be the most bitter victory, you will ever gain in your life. Take a good look at countries like Rumania, which is considerd to be the poorhouse of Europe, to get a feeling for it.

I prefer to look at what we were before Euro.
With our own currency, our own chance of managing balances individually, our know how and skills in doing things we've never had problems.
We as Italians are strong enough to be back the wonderful, industrious and ingenious Country we've always been.
Just put your (I mean, "you" as "your government") hands off our lives.

[kb7010]

I am NOT trying to stir this thread back up but I have a question and wonder if it is correct?
As per the NEWS I get, "they" (<--keyword) say Germany
will bail out all the other countries with bank problems. Any truth in that?



Also side note. I seen a movie the other day and they had those "2 story" type of buses (where people pay whatever to get from point A to point B)
Do you guys still have those over there? I am sure you guys are laughing at that question, but I was just wondering is all.!

[Bastardo]

First Question - No, impossible for Germany to bail out all euro area

Second Question - In London they still have those i guess

Cheers

[kb7010]

Thanks for the answers. Again not trying to "stir the pot" as this is a hard thread on all. IE:I still think the good old US of A is fucked also.

[ullathorne]

Yeah will still have Double Decker buses all over the UK and Ireland...
My local buses are £1:70 for a single journey. That's about $2:60 or you can buy an all day ticket for about $5:00

http://www.doubledecker-bus.com/ Just found this link

[fett]

I thought you guys were getting rid of the double deckers. Speaking of double deckers and how a card cheat can use a double deck ......................... It's Friday. Egypt has an election coming up. Hell, the court just threw out the Assembly. The Greeks are voting in a few hours. I'm sure that will go over well and maybe not. We are all shiiting our pants in anticipation of another weekend watching "As the Euro Turns". Anyway, I had a great day.

[bongano]

There was an interesting article on a german magazine some day ago.
I strongly suggest you guys to read it, maybe using Google Translate for those who don't understand german (like me)

These words -especially written by a german- reveal the rate of ideologism that moves the action of Mrs. Merkel.
We are all in the same sinking boat but somebody has the illusion to save him(her)self throwing women and children into the sea.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz...-a-838581.html

[Kostas Dee]

Someday we'll discuss about Italy's and Greece's contribution in what most of you guys are calling "Western way of life" but for now lets settle with that -
There was a nobody back then,i think his name was something like Aristotelis or something(all sound "Greek" to you anyway ),who told this simple thing
- Who ever knows history also knows the future cause life is moving in circles -

...
1929
then..
1933..
then
1940..
..
We're in trouble
..
Deja Vu
..
Lets hope not

PS New French president talked to the biggest Greek network(also the biggest Troikan fan..) two days before the elections..and told us to "Not to vote with our heart,because even though he sympathises with our complicated situation he stated that we need to vote all those fuckers that wanna sell our country for a couple of cents to his masters.."
Told you guys,if the elit wanna fuck a country puts a so called socialism goverment to do that..Mark my words

[bongano]

Hey Kostas, have you ever heard in a democratic world a foreign leader warning people from another country to vote for a specific party?

"German Chancellor Angela Merkel has urged Greek voters to elect leaders who will stick to austerity measures."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18474437

These are things we don't want to see.
Interference in other countries' democratic life is not bearable anymore here.

[Kostas Dee]

The threats of all the so called leaders of Euroeconomic terrorism scared the shit of our older citizens who get their information exclusively out of the stupid box..
Syriza didnt gain the majority of the votes ...
Now we have to beg again to throw us a bone,they transform us to the beggars of EU,the sad thing is that the northern EU citizens believe that too,its written all over the thread.


Stop watching TV,period
Italy is next,then its France

Do something,wake up guys

PS Have you ever heard the term Catastroika?

[Bastardo]

Your place is in Europe Kostas, its Germany who gotta stop behaving like she owns EU...

That kind of attitude is the mother of all problems at this moment, but no problem...History will repeat itself again and again till the lesson is learnt... IMHO

[bongano]

Bad news from Greece guys.
Those motherfucker Euro-bureaucrats strike again.
Merkel and Hollande shamelessly supported New Democracy till today in the evening, with an inadmissible interference in a sovereign country internal affairs.
Two hours before voting closed, a Belgian TV unveiled some exit polls stating New Democracy 1.5% in front. Forbidden by laws behavior.
Democracy scares those tyrants.
I guess it's just a matter of time: Samaras will fail again, austerity policy will be more and more strong and unbearable, people more and more angry and the Eurozone will break apart. Have faith guys.

[Bastardo]

Next:

Spain will need a second bail out in less than 6 months and then by the middle of next year it will be Italy...

This thing as turned into a self fullfilling prophecy...no matter what you do it wont stop...

The Auntie is sitting in her confortable Central Europe chair watching EU periphery burning like Nero did in Rome but her time will come...Just wait...

[fett]

I guess the EU was all fine and dandy when the whole world was on a roll. It seems that the whole concept is devolving right back before there was an EU. Here is what I get being an old fart, as much as as you what to try, you can't turn back the clock. I got complemented because I pointed out that Turkey is doing quite well. Thankyou very much. Go Turkey!!!!!! Anyway," Here's another nice mess you've gotten me into." Oliver Hardy circa 1925.

[Breizman]

Oh fuck, I had forgotten about all that crap for one week.