New French President

[bongano]

I think you already know your arguments fail somewhere, right?
That's cause you're talking without knowing facts and numbers.

Again, if you guys overthere are happy to say that you're the one and only to pay taxes, you can keep on saying. But the truth is different.
Anyway.
According to Eurostat, average per year salaries for factories with more of 10 workers in Europe, are:

Germany: 38.005
Italy: 29.653
Spain: 24.609
Greece: 22.698
Portugal: 16.112

What a fair "Union", uh?


Then, when you Germans "bought" your eastern region, you were allowed to break any European economic and fiscal treaties.
All of European countries agreed. Yes, we "were" an Union.
Now do the same with those countries that are in trouble.
It's easy to say "we are an Union" only when it's useful to you.

[Bastardo]

I´ll even give you some more stones in your hands: I´m an economist and financial analyst.

But then, that is just my opinion to which I´m entitled, as is with yours.

Greets

People are quoting not only their opinion but also George Soros, Joseph Steiglitz etc.... as you can see...

So out there there are a few wise people that also think that this euro model we currently live on is not working anymore, not working now for us in the south and not working for anybody in the future they fear...

And now the million dollar question? At this point Mrs Merkel politics are aimed at protecting union interests or just german interests ? Come on...You know the answer...

Cheers

[ullathorne]

Stefano how can you compare salerys like this??
On one hand you have .....
Germany.. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, VW,Allianz, BASF,Bayer,
And on the other hand....Portugal and Greece have Sardines and Olive oil

[bongano]

Stefano how can you compare salerys like this??
On one hand you have .....
Germany.. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, VW,Allianz, BASF,Bayer,
And on the other hand....Portugal and Greece have Sardines and Olive oil

That's EXACTLY was I try to mean since this topic started: we cannot be a real union. Ever.
There are countries with too different "speeds" in growth.
It's not just imposing the same currency you can unite them. On the contrary, you'll kill the weaker ones.
If anyone would have wanted to unite these such different countries, had to set up REAL "United States of Europe", with same currency, same governance, same fiscal politics, same bonds, same federal debt, same labor costs etc. etc.
Exactly what Mrs Merkel doesn't want. Cause they think they are "advanced", the superior people.
"Die Große Deutsche"
You can see it also in this topic.

[KickstartMyHeart]

I think you already know your arguments fail somewhere, right?
That's cause you're talking without knowing facts and numbers.

Again, if you guys overthere are happy to say that you're the one and only to pay taxes, you can keep on saying. But the truth is different.
Anyway.
According to Eurostat, average per year salaries for factories with more of 10 workers in Europe, are:

Germany: 38.005
Italy: 29.653
Spain: 24.609
Greece: 22.698
Portugal: 16.112

What a fair "Union", uh?


Then, when you Germans "bought" your eastern region, you were allowed to break any European economic and fiscal treaties.
All of European countries agreed. Yes, we "were" an Union.
Now do the same with those countries that are in trouble.
It's easy to say "we are an Union" only when it's useful to you.

If you say so, ... but one thing tho, get your basics straight and don´t compare apples with bricks. You know what a base date is and that you have to compare using a level base of say 100. I wasn´t in the least referring to germany earning less in absolute terms compared to italy. I´ve made my point that the relative development of earnings was way different. Yeah, growth in indonesia might be far bigger than in the eu. But then, from a low base the growth is always relative bigger. That means just not so much in absolute terms. You know that there is a difference between absolute and relative terms and figures, don´t you?

And what with the smart guys like Soros and Stiglitz? Well, at least one of them has a vital financial interest that this thing goes tits up. He almost killed the british pound when he betted them out of the union. Remember this, my friend? Another bunch of very smart guys tanked LTCM in 1998 (all of them noble prize winners). Remember that too? And for every smart guy supporting your case you´ll find another smart guy (or gal for that matter) to say the opposite. But I´m just an uninformed academic, brainwashed by the propaganda-papers of my country.

Let´s just say that Cap´n Crunchies Conspiracy Theorials aren´t my brand of breakfeast.

Good night, gentleman.

[Bastardo]

At this point Mrs Merkel politics are aimed at protecting union interests or just german interests ?

[bongano]

At this point Mrs Merkel politics are aimed at protecting union interests or just german interests ?

The answer, my friend, comes this time directly from Germany.
It's a few days ago interview to Gerhard Schröder from an Italian newspaper I linked to Google Translate for your convenience.
It starts with: "Merkel thinks in terms of elections. It's wrong".

http://bit.ly/LtqEYZ

We all need more Germans to think this way.

[KramerAmsterdam]

What's good for the Union is good for Germany and other way round. So yes. She does try hard. She is not an idiot to think else. Have trust and faith. Also , she has the homefront to go along with ideas..politics is intermediating between opposite sites we aren't able to go to a discussion ont his forum, cna you imagine if you have to mingle and come to terms with billionaire players, the people, millions of them, your own political party and coalition as well as with the opposition...and that with multiple countries.

I have faith and trust the good aspects of these plans...go back is no option, and comparing factory income as a hard fact over states, that's idiotic..even in the USA and also Italy I am sure there are region with slower economies and places with hot economies..hence the difference in housing and service costs.


Remy

ps. anybody coming to liverpool the 27th-29th of july? Architects and Financial specialists with academic degrees sure make enought to come on over and drink a beer and play Kramers together?

[kb7010]

Still an "outsider looking in". But I think if ALL you guys would get on the same page and do whatever is needed to try and fix your problems (instead of blaming whoever)
You would get much better results.

ie: there are MORE people then there are people in your and my Government.! If it takes people going to the streets then so be it. But to blame so and so is nothing but words. Untied we stand. Divided WE ALL FALL. (Pink Floyd words I know, but they are so true)

JMO and TO BE TAKEN AS SUCH.

[KickstartMyHeart]

ps. anybody coming to liverpool the 27th-29th of july? Architects and Financial specialists with academic degrees sure make enought to come on over and drink a beer and play Kramers together?

I'd love to come Remy, but I can't make it due to some family issues that have to be taken care of come end of july. Nothing all to serious but important though.

Stefano, I hope to get the chance to meet you and have a beer (or a glass of fine italian red wine). Not to settle a grudge (cause I'm bearing none) but to show the rest of the world that the people living inside the pan european boundaries can be friends even in hard times and with different opinions. Our main problem is that we can't change politicians even if we think that we can make a small difference by elections (that is an illusion tho) or going on the streets and raise hell (works a bit better but what comes then is mostly worse, look at the aftermath of the so called arabian spring). Would a call to arms solve the euro-dilemma? No. And that is a good thing if you ask me. We have to solve this in a civilized way. Going back or a civil war ain't no options. Paramount in this is to do it in a way that no one is left behind. You already mentioned the german unity. We know how hard it is to try to fuse two parts to one that are very different by many accounts. This process is taking more then 20 years already and I think we still struggle sometimes to get on the same page (and we have one political and financial system). To write off a european union due to cultural and regional differences is to easy. I think we can overcome this and you are right the germans have to give some more in the process (but we all have to) to become one voice. It may take a long time. But we simply have to make it through. No one is an island. And I'm not keen on listening to chinese music and having the indian equivalent of McDonald's since those a cultural differences that are a bit to much for me to take. Hope that sounds not to pathetic in your ears, cuz it's not meant to be.

Greets,
Christian

[bongano]

I have faith and trust the good aspects of these plans...go back is no option, and comparing factory income as a hard fact over states, that's idiotic..even in the USA and also Italy I am sure there are region with slower economies and places with hot economies..hence the difference in housing and service costs.

This is how it works between different countries. Not how it SHOULD work in the same country.
You confirm we are not in the same country.
Every country has regions with different economies (I mean, huge enough country to have them, not a spit like Holland ) but a wise government has mutuality policies to balance them. Every country has a "south". And every country take its economic resources from north to south to balance its internal richness.
This is NOT what's happening in the so called European Union. In the EU there is the richest country who is choking poorer ones.
No problem at all by my side. It's in Merkel's rights.
Till few weeks ago she had an ally. Today she has him no more either. She's politically isolated. She's fighting this suicidal war alone today.
I'm totally aware we citizens can't do anything democratically. We are not allowed to elect anyone to fight our battle. In Italy we had no political elections either, we were imposed a self proclaimed government "suggested" from higher rooms in Berl...err Bruxelles
Everyone can see this is a dangerous situation. Where democratic principles lacked always in history there had been wars and this time southerns are not willing to be plundered again.
It's time for German citizens to open their eyes and start doing something to prevent a bigger mess.
Of course we all want to be friend and live in peace and prosperity.
But everything has its own fair price.

Oh and for the Liverpool meeting I sadly have to give up. I'll be busy in that period and I don't drink alcohol.

[Bastardo]

I'd love to come Remy, but I can't make it due to some family issues that have to be taken care of come end of july. Nothing all to serious but important though.

Stefano, I hope to get the chance to meet you and have a beer (or a glass of fine italian red wine). Not to settle a grudge (cause I'm bearing none) but to show the rest of the world that the people living inside the pan european boundaries can be friends even in hard times and with different opinions. Our main problem is that we can't change politicians even if we think that we can make a small difference by elections (that is an illusion tho) or going on the streets and raise hell (works a bit better but what comes then is mostly worse, look at the aftermath of the so called arabian spring). Would a call to arms solve the euro-dilemma? No. And that is a good thing if you ask me. We have to solve this in a civilized way. Going back or a civil war ain't no options. Paramount in this is to do it in a way that no one is left behind. You already mentioned the german unity. We know how hard it is to try to fuse two parts to one that are very different by many accounts. This process is taking more then 20 years already and I think we still struggle sometimes to get on the same page (and we have one political and financial system). To write off a european union due to cultural and regional differences is to easy. I think we can overcome this and you are right the germans have to give some more in the process (but we all have to) to become one voice. It may take a long time. But we simply have to make it through. No one is an island. And I'm not keen on listening to chinese music and having the indian equivalent of McDonald's since those a cultural differences that are a bit to much for me to take. Hope that sounds not to pathetic in your ears, cuz it's not meant to be.

Greets,
Christian

Christian people down here feel that this crisis is 4 years old now and nobody in the EU had yet the balls to take care of things like they should and problems remains to be solved....

They just prescribed the patient some painkillers and hoped that they would wake up one morning and the storm was gone...Unfortunally that didnt happen

If US of Europe is the way, be it...If we need to split..be it...But we cant be in this limbo for so long...

Thats it...

[KramerAmsterdam]

Stefano, why are you always downgrading my country and my knowledge? Also with all the good remarks and hand given to you by Christian e.g. you are behaving very arrogantly in my opinion. That does yourself nor this discussion any good at all. Your right is not right, nor is ''ours'''but again in replies you hardly react to any of the points being made, just outpoint your views more and/or twist whatever remarks to your own use...and in the mean time insult other people lack of knowledge and ideas as well criticise my country.

[KramerAmsterdam]

If US of Europe is the way, be it...If we need to split..be it...But we cant be in this limbo for so long...

Thats it...

Now that is good sense. I tend to the former than the latter, but yes, make it end and do it constructively.


Remy

[bongano]

Stefano, why are you always downgrading my country and my knowledge? Also with all the good remarks and hand given to you by Christian e.g. you are behaving very arrogantly in my opinion. That does yourself nor this discussion any good at all. Your right is not right, nor is ''ours'''but again in replies you hardly react to any of the points being made, just outpoint your views more and/or twist whatever remarks to your own use...and in the mean time insult other people lack of knowledge and ideas as well criticise my country.

If you're referring to "spit" it was a joke (there's also a smile besides) just like your "idiotic" was, I hope.
I refuse to believe you feel yourself allowed to offend and not being reversed only cause you're an admin and the other are not, right?
And about my lack of react to points, when you'll reply with solid arguments with references and certified numbers like I do, we could work something out.

[bongano]

Christian people down here feel that this crisis is 4 years old now and nobody in the EU had yet the balls to take care of things like they should and problems remains to be solved....

They just prescribed the patient some painkillers and hoped that they would wake up one morning and the storm was gone...Unfortunally that didnt happen

If US of Europe is the way, be it...If we need to split..be it...But we cant be in this limbo for so long...

Thats it...

Esta certo meu amigo.
Those painkillers were just like chemo. The cure that's worse than the pain.
The only way to be unite is to give one and only democratic governance to Europe, just like the US of A.
No more Portuguese, German or French prime ministers, but the European Prime Minister.
No more Portuguese, Spanish or Italian stock exchange, but the European stock exchange.
No more Belgian, French or Greek sovereign debt, but the European sovereign debt.
No more Greek, Dutch or German bonds, but Euro-bonds.
No more Italian, Spanish or Greek earthquakes, but European earthquakes

Are ALL European governors ready to do so?
My opinion is they aren't. And in particular Mrs Merkel isn't at all.
And more important: are ALL European citizens ready to do so? I guess they aren't.
That's why I tend to say let's split even tho I'd be ready to do so right tomorrow.
Am I pessimist? Nope, I'm realistic.

[KramerAmsterdam]

And again you are patronizing in nearly all lines you write..you made a study of that maybe, cause you do it like an art.

I offended you only after you said the Germans were ethnic cleansing the Italians..Me being an admin has nothing to do with that.

[bongano]

And again you are patronizing in nearly all lines you write..you made a study of that maybe, cause you do it like an art.

I offended you only after you said the Germans were ethnic cleansing the Italians..Me being an admin has nothing to do with that.

Again, it's not my own opinion there's a genocide going on in Europe. Facts are stating it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...ry-children-pe

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1342868.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/wo...pagewanted=all

http://www.news.com.au/business/ital...-1226327448387

And look, no fascist or commie sources there.

[KickstartMyHeart]

Again, it's not my own opinion there's a genocide going on in Europe. Facts are stating it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...ry-children-pe

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1342868.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/wo...pagewanted=all

http://www.news.com.au/business/ital...-1226327448387

And look, no fascist or commie sources there.

Sorry to speak up again, Stef, but none of these news-articles are using the word "genocide". Do you have fun using such terminology? And btw, are these the reliable sources that proof your act (you´re joking when you call that "facts", aren´t you)? I wonder, I wonder very much, but I understand now. I like to have a good discussion above most everything else. But the arson you´re doing here is at least highly questionable. I thought you´d lay down some sound data to underline your statements and not just your everyday paperflow that is aimed on raising the numbers of readers or the hit-rate of web pages. When our governments (every single one on the continent) would act on these "news"-feeds than we could all kiss our backsides goodbye. Nothing will be gained when one is stirring a pot that is already in the mother of all turmoils. `Nuff said.

Greets,
Christian

[fett]

All those articles and pundits spent 10+ years hyping all the policies they created that came to an end in 2008. What changed in 2008? I know. A collaspe (sp) in confidence. A little crack in the dam turned into a busted dam that flooded the world. We are half way through 2012 and the floodwaters are still rising. There is a saying about rising water floating all boats. There is only one problem. All the boats have holes in them. Do you honestly think that the people that made the boats have the ability to patch the holes?

[bongano]

Sorry to speak up again, Stef, but none of these news-articles are using the word "genocide". Do you have fun using such terminology?

I'm used to call things with their names, yes.
I hate policially correct people.

And btw, are these the reliable sources that proof your act (you´re joking when you call that "facts", aren´t you)?

FYI fact that there are over 400000 hungry children in Greece due to economic crisis comes from a UNICEF report called "Children in Greece 2012". It's not an invention of mine.
You should take a look at it.

[fett]

I just love this thread. Remember, we have one thing in common. Kramer guitars. That's ground zero. I love this forum because we get to see real people behind the guitar. It blows my mind in a good sense. Just keep it civil.

[ullathorne]

Stefano... There are hungry children in my road. That's life unfortunately. There are hungry children in Germany too. Poverty in Germany is rising as fast, in fact possibly quicker than most European countries.
But as your obviously so anti German I'm sure you won't bother reading about that bit...
I'm surprised being Italian, your so against the Germans. You guys used to get along so well together....

[fett]

This thread started because the French got a new Prez. The people spoke. Hell, even Italy has a new head of state. The people spoke. Greece has a new head of state. They spoke. That's alot of new leaders and the masses are expecting the new guys to do something. Last time I checked, I haven't heard a word from those 3 new guys. What does that tell me? Their silence speaks words.

[bongano]

Stefano... There are hungry children in my road. That's life unfortunately. There are hungry children in Germany too. Poverty in Germany is rising as fast, in fact possibly quicker than most European countries.
But as your obviously so anti German I'm sure you won't bother reading about that bit...
I'm surprised being Italian, your so against the Germans. You guys used to get along so well together....

I'm sorry for all suffering people in the world, really. Especially children.
Poverty is everywhere, no doubt. I'm sure there's in Germany too. I don't know in what extent but I'm sure there is.
I'm not informed in any UNICEF report bout German children starving tho. Evidently the problem there is not so big than in Greece, where financial speculation is persisting in a particular way.
I'm not against German people. Not at all. I'm just angry against their government austerity policy imposed to all of us. And I'm disappointed against German people (of course only their majority supporting this government) who's supporting this policy. And I'm angry against European institutions who are allowing German government in the person of Mrs Merkel to rule over whole Europe. How can be democratic a so called "union" where only one person is allowed to keep 700 millions people in check? Latest time history remembers one only person ruling Europe with all other leaders' complicity was during WWII.