An Open Rant About Paypal - Kramer Related...

[jumbowolfe]

For all of you using Paypal, as I used to be for the last 5 years up until today.....

I just received word that my account has been put on limited access. Mind you, I've never taken payment on anything other than ebay, or other off ebay guitar parts, so lets start from there. I have over 300 paypal transactions, I've never had a dispute, and everything has been perfect.

They shut me down as of March 7, and they will only tell me I violated the user agreement. They won't give me specifics, and they have locked down the remainder of $14 in my account. Luckily, I've been smart, I've never kept huge balances in my account. I called thier customer support, and not only was the lady a bitch, she even asked me if I had been selling illegal items and receiving payments on them. She asked this in a very accusatory way.

So why am I posting this. I'm posting this as a wanring. I went to the usual sites www.paypalsucks.com and www.paypalwarning.com and read alot of horror stories. I know we've discussed these in the past, but do yourself a huge favor and read through all the testimonials of issues from those FUCKWADS at Paypal. I'm officially done with them, and I'm probably going to seriously scale back my ebay purcahses and sales because they own these fuckers.

So be very careful, I highly suggest you not use paypal unless it is absolutely necessary. I've heard all these stories for years, and it has now happened to me, and they refuse to tell me why my account is shutdown. It is a FUCKING scam to the 10th degree and I'm severely pissed off.

Mike

[Sirion]

Interesting story. I have never read those horror stories before, I'll be more aware now (guess I'll have to spend the 160$ I have on PayPal pretty quick then :D )

What alternatives do we have to PayPal?

[Dino]

Man, that's bullshit.
Fortunately, I'm like you and don't leave any significant balance in my account, but I do use their services to "funnel" money from my bank accounts to pay for other things.
I honestly don't even know if that's against their "rules" or not. It's just convenient for me.
But after reading this, I may start looking for another option.

I do know that I receive emails all the time from people claiming to be "PayPal" telling me that "my payment has been sent" when I haven't sent anything. Just another SCAM to try to get you to click on a bogus link.

DON'T EVEN OPEN THESE EMAILS!
DELETE THEM ALL!
Then login to your account and check and make sure nobody has screwed with your account.
Same goes for emails from "eBay".

Damn dude.
That really sucks.
The least they could have done was explain why they did what they did!
________
Handheld vaporizer (http://vaporizerinfo.com/)

[short_circus]

Dude, that toatally sucks. Screw PayPal. :eviltongu :bs :eviltongu

[Tourpicx]

Has anyone tried this website as an alternative to Paypal ? I wonder if this one is any good. :scratchhe

http://www.free-merchant.com/

[kramer46]

Thanks for the heads up Mike, I have used paypal alot - no problems yet - yet - yet - I will be keeping a zero reserve - thanks

[jeff]

Has anyone tried this website as an alternative to Paypal ? I wonder if this one is any good. :scratchhe

http://www.free-merchant.com/

That looks like a good alternative. I just had my paypal account temp. frooze because a foreign bidder didn't want to cough up the money for quicker shipping and when he didn't recieve the item in 3 weeks he filed a claim. The shipping he was willing to pay for was 4-6 weeks. Paypal froze my acct. without even asking me any questions. I'd like to find out more about this free merchant service. Thanks for pointing it out. Nice find :thumbsup

[KramerWolf]

Mike... I understand exactly where you're coming from... I never would validate my account with paypal... for one... because I simply didn't trust them after reading all the stories... so now I have 3 different paypal accounts...because they would shut me down when I got to 2500.00 in purchases... well they got in trouble for that.... so once a month now they reset it... I ONLY use pay pal for purchases.... I can only hope that an alternitive comes along soon...

James

[Rick S]

Try www.bidpay.com :thumbsup
Alot better than paypud. :-x

[WAR IN D]

Damn Mike, that sucks.. But I had heard those horror stories, and that's why I created an account at the bank for Paypal only. I never keep any money at Paypal for an extended amount of time, one week or less. I transfer it to my Paypal bank account, and as soon as it hits there I withdraw it and deposit to another account (at another bank, even.. You can never be too careful ;) ).

If I need to pay for anything, I withdraw the funds and deposit them in the Paypal account then pay for the item. Might take a day or so longer, but it's worth it not to have to worry about the hassle for me.

I hate to hear this happened to you though, and I would be royally pissed if they tried some :bs like that with me. I'd make them give me a reason and/or proof of why the account was frozen or suspended and if they couldn't come up with a legitimate answer.. Sick the laywers on 'em. I guess if there was a bright side to this, it's that you were careful and only had $14 in that account. Could have been alot worse.

[Lightningdan]

I don't use paypal anymore either. 3 years ago they drained the remainder of my bank account (280 dollars) and froze it so that I couldn't use it anymore. They wouldn't tell me why. I had to open a new bank account just so I could deposit my paychecks and pay bills. They said I violated the user agreement (and I hadn't bought or sold anything for 9 months at the time) I disputed, got a lawyer, but never got my money back. They DID finally unfreeze my bank account, 4 months later. Folks if you use paypal use a seperate bank account thats JUST For paypal. Don't use your regular checking. You may go years without a problem, but you WILL finally have one. See, paypal isn't really a non profit service. They use people's bank accounts and credit cards to finance the recoop fees that people get when they're scammed. They do that how? By draining the accounts of random people such as myself out of the blue. And they do it to ALOT of people and they don't have to tell you why. Its all in the user agreement in tiny print.

[fullmetalneck]

Since I am only using PayPal for purchases, I don't do anything with a bank account via PayPal. All purchases are through my credit card on PayPal (although they always try and dissuade you), and my credit card is aggressive about back charging PayPal when I file any complaints. So this way I always have recourse through my credit card (which also include certain protections under Federal Credit laws), and PayPal cannot get into my bank account. Good credit card companies have policies about protecting their customers from internet fraud and will back you up.

It's an unfortunate situation for Sellers on eBay, because eBay owns PayPal and many buyers really want to use PayPal because they can pay with a credit card. A good alternative would be to establish your own credit card merchant account, and ask that buyers make direct payment with you and not use the Ebay/PayPal checkout procedure. That is totally legitimate on eBay and will save you money (and risk). You can set up a merchant account with Costco and lots of other companies - but it's only worth the trouble if you are going to have some level of credit card business to justify it.

[Midnight_Highway]

Really sorry to hear that Mike! Hope it works out ok for you.

George

[unchained1984]

Very questionable practice freezing folks accounts with no good reason. They need their ass kicked by the regulatory authorities. If it were me I'd be in touch with either my bank or credit card head office Mike & have them investigate this shit ,it's not on. I know it's not a whole lot of money but as a matter of principle they need a good ass whippin'

Sandy

[Tourpicx]

Try www.bidpay.com :thumbsup
Alot better than paypud. :-x

Nope :nono can't use bidpay either. At least not for Ebay auctions anymore. Effective Dec 30, 2005 they are no longer providing that money order online service with a credit card.

[jumbowolfe]

Thanks everyone for the concern. The $14, I could give a crap less about, I'm more pissed about being closed out with no explanation, and being side swiped accused of selling an illegal good, that really pissed me off! Other than that, I don't mind going through other methods, it just sucks that I've been a loyal customer and loyal promoter of paypal for years, and to shit on me with the drop of one keystroke. How much in fees have they made off me over the years? Thats when I really get pissed off, no customer service for the payment of service I have given them. Fuck them, VK will now have a proudly badged anti-paypal icon on the front page, with a link to my story. 4000 hits per day should get it out to a few people.

Actually dude, you do know that they do not have to honor a Credit Cards dispute system, I read that on paypalsucks.com They don't fall under the same rules, so you are essentially unprotected if you make a purchase with your Credit Card, except for maybe an account suspension on the offending person. I rarely use my bank account for paypal transactions, only for withdrawals. I have CC's setup for everything too. But when I found out basically you go without your usual CC defense (because the charge is a Paypal charge, not a charge from the actual person you are buying a good from) thats when I put the final nail in the coffin.

I am looking into a merchant account though, and setting up a new checking account per Stephan. I've been too loose on this over the last four years, and I've learned my lesson. Thank GOD that Bjorn hadn't paypaled me some money for a guitar before this happened, that would have been $400 locked into my account that he or I couldn't get to.

DEATH to PAYPAL!
Mike



Since I am only using PayPal for purchases, I don't do anything with a bank account via PayPal. All purchases are through my credit card on PayPal (although they always try and dissuade you), and my credit card is aggressive about back charging PayPal when I file any complaints. So this way I always have recourse through my credit card (which also include certain protections under Federal Credit laws), and PayPal cannot get into my bank account. Good credit card companies have policies about protecting their customers from internet fraud and will back you up.

It's an unfortunate situation for Sellers on eBay, because eBay owns PayPal and many buyers really want to use PayPal because they can pay with a credit card. A good alternative would be to establish your own credit card merchant account, and ask that buyers make direct payment with you and not use the Ebay/PayPal checkout procedure. That is totally legitimate on eBay and will save you money (and risk). You can set up a merchant account with Costco and lots of other companies - but it's only worth the trouble if you are going to have some level of credit card business to justify it.

[warrenp099]

Those bastards locked me out too! They said that it was possible that a third party had accessed my account and I needed to reconfirm my account. This just happened 10 minutes ago. I reconfirmed and will get my 70 bucks and then close my account. I think I will try something different like a good ole fashion money order. Sorry to hear what they did to you Mike. I'd be pissed about the 14 bucks, it's your fuckin money! I'm done with em too.

[Tourpicx]

What would really be nice is if Paypal had a complete user agreement posted on Paypal. Since they really suck at communication they should at least post a full updated user agreement that is in one place on their website. If they already do can someone direct me to it ? :scratchhe

I just looked at the "updated policy" link and learned a few things. Did you know that as a seller you are not allowed to tell a buyer what payment method through Paypal you will accept like bank account vs. credit card only. Paypal states you have to take all forms of payment if you use their service. This came into effect in Aug 2005.

You would think after a major class action lawsuit this past year they would change their business practice. But unfortunatly they and Ebay have became so big like Microsoft, we are all just a $ sign to them and good customer service or any customer service for that matter is non-exsistant.

[Full Bug]

Well Mike they supspended my account about 6 months ago same thing...one day just couldn't log in anymore. Called and they said I violated agreement etc.........


So I go to make new account in wifes name, and when I try to put my CC that I used for online stuff it would not let me, said it was already in use by another user ID and that caused them to shut down the wifes account !!!!!!!!!!!!!

So then I call them. I tell them hey you dumbasses it was my account you terminated that was using that CC, and my wife is on the card......they say well then log into the old account and remove the CC from it.......I say HELLO I cannot log into the account. They say we'll email you instructions to your email address in your profile.

Reason they terminated my account was I changed Email providers and forgot to update my profile. So they kept getting bounced email. I tell them hey I changed ISP and old email is dead...they say Log in and update your email..... I say I can't you are sending it to the old address, send it to the new one. They say we can't until you ......blah blah blah

After that I got very angry and started screaming obscenities and throwing things .

[Tourpicx]

Those bastards locked me out too! They said that it was possible that a third party had accessed my account and I needed to reconfirm my account. This just happened 10 minutes ago. I reconfirmed and will get my 70 bucks and then close my account. I think I will try something different like a good ole fashion money order. Sorry to hear what they did to you Mike. I'd be pissed about the 14 bucks, it's your fuckin money! I'm done with em too.

Warren, did they actually locked out your account when you directly went to Paypal. I never can trust those email that are allegedly from Paypal. That third party email scam has been going around for quite some time saying that you need to update your info. When indeed the email never came from Paypal even though it looks authentic. I myself have gotten those kind of emails at least twice a month for the past few years. I just delete them. ;)

[ramico1@cfl.rr.com]

I read this week google has started a paypal like account for it's auction site, they are testing it and it is free. I have had problems with paypal but all have been resolved quite easily with a phone call.

[swedrock]

Well guys, this is a strange one..especially since I was the one that sort of made Mike realize his PeePee account didn´t work while trying to send him money. The funds I was sending then didn´t come from my own account, but a friends..Just minutes ago I got a mail from PayPal notifying ME that MY account access has been limited because of high risk in my PP transactions as of today(having bought a set of tuners and a PAF pickup)!!?? I´m supplied with case ID #, and suggested to follow the link to the Resolution center to complete the"steps to remove limitations.."...BUT WAIT here..me stoopid swede gets somewhat suspicious, so I log in the usual way at PayPal...and..nothing wrong there!!?? No open issues!!??
So obviously the notification from PayPal to me was spoof mail,,,so my advice to all of you guys, and especially you Warren--look out, seems to be some fowl play involved here..
Could it be that you have been hacked somehow Mike??
/Bjorn

[atomicholiday]

Dan, just to clarify, are you saying Paypal locked your bank account OUTSIDE of paypal?
Freezing your pp account is one thing, but hitting your other accounts is just plain going to f#@cking far! That's some scary shit. :-x
Think I'm gonna start looking too.

[Lightningdan]

yeah.. see I signed up for paypal. then I got "verified" with my bank account. It was 3 years ago, and I wasn't quite so smart about it and I used my actual bank account for my paypal. They froze it. I couldn't get my money out of my own bank account. I had direct deposit so I lost one weeks pay. It took 4 months to get everything straightened out but they never did refun my money and I closed out my ebay and paypal accounts, removed all my credit card numbers. No more. If they don't take a money order I don't buy.

[warrenp099]

Jeff
Yes it was locked when I went to it after reading what happened to Mike. Only to find that I had been "limited" and had to reconfirm and change my password and stuff.

[KramerWolf]

Warren, you need to look into a merchant account....

James

[warrenp099]

That's what I'll do. I can't trust Paypal anymore.

[jumbowolfe]

Warren, you may have been spoofed, very important. Go to PAYPAL right now and change your password via a web browser. You may have been emailed by a company this is not paypal. Quickly change it, this is a known scam.

Mike


That's what I'll do. I can't trust Paypal anymore.

[KramerWolf]

Mike, I think you're right about paypal... I think we forumites need to find another method of paying for our purchases...
Pay pal has always been convienant, but at what point do you give up customer service?


James

[warbrill]

Warren, did they actually locked out your account when you directly went to Paypal. I never can trust those email that are allegedly from Paypal. That third party email scam has been going around for quite some time saying that you need to update your info. When indeed the email never came from Paypal even though it looks authentic. I myself have gotten those kind of emails at least twice a month for the past few years. I just delete them. ;)

This is a phishing scam. Folks, it's not PayPal at all. I got this same email, but I know PayPal doesn't work that way. So I didn't click on the link. I just did a bit of checking, and sure enough, none of what they said was true. They even said "Don't send an email for two days or it will slow down our service." Yeah, it would give them two days to clean out my bank accounts, etc. :bs

Note that there are several different versions of this email scam, so you may get something different. Real PayPal messages would tell you to log in to your account, not "click here to log in". They're not sending you to PayPal at all - your system call will be redirected to someplace like Russia or Bulgaria or wherever. Beware!

[Louie Music]

I do all of the Ebay sales at the pawn shop I work at, we do NOT accept PayPal and NEVER will.

Mike is the third person that I personally know that's had problems with these fuckers. One guy I know sold a Rolex on Ebay, guy paid via PayPal, then made a dispute the day the watch arrived... yes, he was a scammer. The watch was real, but he made some stupid complaint about the band on it. He got the watch & his $2,000 back... the seller got NOTHING. Another guy I know sold some tools, PayPal gave the buyer his money back because he was happy with shipping!!!! He lost his tools & the cash.

OK, I do all of the Ebay sales at the store as I already mentioned, I list about 50 to 60 items a week usually. So let me talk to all of you here who sale on Ebay, I dont care if it's 1 item a month or 500 a month.

There's alot of new Ebay users coming on everyday, ALOT of them. And they love PayPal, most of them are idiots. You sale a newbee a guitar, he pays $500 through PayPal. He gets the guitar and is pissed off because he feels the neck isnt comfortable. He makes a dispute on this. PayPal freezes your account, he keeps the guitar and gets his money back. Sound stupid? It's not, that's how quick they are to give money to the buyers.

Guys, these new Ebay users will fuck you faster than you can blink, and they try it with me all the time. With PayPal on their side, they know they can have their way all the time.

PayPal knows that most sellers will never learn and will keep using PAyPal to get payments. "It cant happen to me!" Bullshit! Look at Mike, look at the other members, look at the anti-PayPal sites.... it can AND will eventually happen! And probably because of one of these fucking dumb-ass newbees on Ebay.

I'm always suprised when I see sellers on Ebay who only accept PayPal. They generate less bids and are showing their ignorance, they show they have not done their homework.

I'm also sick of these smartass know it alls who I get emails from everyday with the same line they think is witty, "No PayPal, no bid" I always email them back thanking them for not bidding because they're obviously idiots... then in closing I call them "Moose-twat".

I hope word gets out on PayPal. Every one that emails me asking why we dont accept PayPal at the store, I always send them a link to www.paypalwarning.com, some it email me back saying they'll never use PayPal again after they go to these sites. It seems to be getting out here on the forum. If any of you get screwed by PayPal later on after reading this thread Mike started trying to warn you, and after reading all of the tesitmonials from other forum members.... well, I dont feel sorry for you.

[atomicholiday]

OK, so we need to find an alternative to Paypal. I'm ready to walk now before I get screwed too. What's out there?

[short_circus]

I've never used paypal to get payments from ebay, as Ive never sold anything there, but I have made payments using the service. I will no longer use them. I agree with past statements, If they wont take a money order, screw them. Or maybe there is a better alternative. I'm all ears. Or would that be "eyes" here?

[atomicholiday]

Has anyone checked this site out?
http://www.free-merchant.com/

[spade2you]

Yikes guys. After reading these horror stories, I deleted my accounts. :scratchhe Then again, I don't really need to use it any more since ebay isn't too trustworthy either.

[TBDREE]

I always transfer my paypal money straight to my bank. As soon as I get a receipt email I go and transfer. It usually takes a few days but by the time I ship out and it gets where its goin I have a cleared paypal account. They cant touch your bank account . There are federal laws to protect you. NEVER LEAVE MONEY IN A PAYPAL ACCOUNT!!
Its too easy to be hacked or screwed by paypal.

[kellcats521]

They CAN get funds from your bank account. You need to read the aggreement that you're in since you've linked a bank account to your paypal account.

I did the same as WAR and others several years ago - opened a free checking account with no cash in it sinply for paypal - I move every cent from that account ASAP when I need it for a sale. I have used it for purchases by depositing $ in there, then doing the paypal transfer.

Before paypal changed their user agreement (~1.5 yrs ago) most credit card companies would dispute paypal charges if a seller screwed you. Now, I've heard that with the new user agreement they're not as eager to tangle with paypal on disputes/chargebacks.

The sad part is that Louie is correct - ebay has made a HOME for paypal, and they'll be around until enought bad press thins their wallet. Ebay has plenty of lawyers to protect their assests - paypal and ebay will only get 'righted' by folks not using them....

[Blitz]

Shit this sucks I want to buy a bunch of stuff from Axcessories I sent them an email yesterday asking for a shipping quote to the UK and if they take PayPal! I trust Axcessories but I don't know about PayPal anymore, are they even safe to buy with?

I've got my Paypal account linked to my credit card i have got fraud protection but how do you claim on that since PayPal is supposed to be this big legit company? Not some low life scammer.
Can they take money off my credit card without asking me?
Chris

[Louie Music]

From what I understand, yes they can.

[warrenp099]

My Paypal account is officially closed. I don't owe them and they don't owe me. I will notify my bank to stop any charges coming from Paypal also.

[James D]

I've never had any trouble with paypal personally, but it's really hard NOT to use paypal when buying lets say a guitar or something.

[Louie Music]

James I've bought some guitars on Ebay, as well as other items that cost a decent amount, and I never used PayPal for any of them. I usually use Postal money orders. Trust me, you dont have to use PayPal to pay for a guitar.

[kellcats521]

James,
Here's the problem w/paypal - say you buy a guitar and use paypal w/your visa card, and the seller never ships your guitar. By using paypal, you've waived your rights to have your visa card company chargeback paypal for that 'purchase'. If you tell your bank to do a chargeback, paypal can (and will) freeze your account, thereby capturing any $ in your paypal account to possibly offset your chargeback. Then, if you have a checking or savings account linked to your paypal account (which they force you to do in order to do any real commerce w/them), they'll 'debit' the chargeback costs (or more) from your linked account(s) as needed to again cover the chargeback. More than likely, you'll be out the money you paid initially, and you'll of course never get the guitar. Also, heaven forbid that you actually use the bank account you linked to paypal for REAL things like rent, car and utilities - they'll take that money if it's in your account.

Remember, you've agreed to paypal doing all of this by signing up.... :help

[DethConsumer]

I just have a credit card account with PayPal now. I took my Checking account out. :-x

[jumbowolfe]

I'm glad and sad at the same time that everyone took interest in my story. I don't know why they did it, and I still haven't received my explanation email. Thank goodness nothing was done monetarily to my CC's. I'm done though, thats it, money orders from here on out.

The deal with that merchant website, it costs $19.95 per month, and you can only "accept" payments, you can't send unless the other person has a merchant account.

I want to check out this thing Google is working on, to see how that works.

Mike

[mike2731]

In fairness to Paypal, with this type of example, if you used Paypal for your purchase and the seller doesn't ship it you don't need to contact your credit card. You can file a dispute with paypal, and the seller has to provide delivery confirmation details and be able to prove that the item was received by the buyer. Now, granted, if someone is running a major scam and running it quickly, you COULD still lose out. If you send a money order to someone and they don't ship, you're going to have a much harder time getting your money back than if you used Paypal, however. Your odds of getting burned are lowered drastically by using Paypal for a purchase over money orders. But make no mistake, Paypal is MUCH MUCH MUCH better to use for purchases than it is for sales. They are very skewed in favor of the buyer, which I personally think really sucks.


James,
Here's the problem w/paypal - say you buy a guitar and use paypal w/your visa card, and the seller never ships your guitar. By using paypal, you've waived your rights to have your visa card company chargeback paypal for that 'purchase'. If you tell your bank to do a chargeback, paypal can (and will) freeze your account, thereby capturing any $ in your paypal account to possibly offset your chargeback. Then, if you have a checking or savings account linked to your paypal account (which they force you to do in order to do any real commerce w/them), they'll 'debit' the chargeback costs (or more) from your linked account(s) as needed to again cover the chargeback. More than likely, you'll be out the money you paid initially, and you'll of course never get the guitar. Also, heaven forbid that you actually use the bank account you linked to paypal for REAL things like rent, car and utilities - they'll take that money if it's in your account.

Remember, you've agreed to paypal doing all of this by signing up.... :help

[short_circus]

Dude, I cancelled my PayPuke account, and in my "reasons" section, I told them exactly why I was cancelling. Maybe if enough folks cancel over this, changes will occur. :eviltongu

[jumbowolfe]

Well, I got more info from them today. Turns out, it was because a friend of mine that sent me some money, he was goofing around and put "Tamiflu" in the subject line of the payment. They took that as I was selling prescription drugs. Mind you, what stops anyone from putting anything in those subject lines? Why is it the receivers fault for that? I didn't type the text and they instantly banned me? Again, this is exactly the problem, HORRID customer service. You would think someone that has been a customer for years would be higher valued than that, and they would have at least called me first or warned me. But no, they decided to shut it down, and decided to keep my $14 for 180 days. What a FUCKING SCAM.

This is a really good friend too who feels bad about this, it was a joke, and Paypal has gone way too far on something as silly as that. What a bunch of assholes.

Mike

[Tourpicx]

Well Mike, glad to hear they finally gave you an explanation. But I do agree with you, that really sucks that they would freeze the account over something stupid like that. :-x

I keep seeing post from different people that Paypal can go into your bank account without your consent. Where in the user agreement does it say that ? I've looked over the whole user agreement today and nothing is said in regards to this. Take a look in the user agreement under section 6.4 Electronic Transfers...it states half way through the paragraph "Paypal will never make transfers from your bank account without your authorization."

[Renegadrian]

Luckily I only make payments with paysh.t and I use a prepaid credit card, one that's issued by our postal service...So it's more of a debit card instead of a credit card...I just put in it the money I need for what I buy (usually no more than 100?)