Very rough fret ends!

[weealf]

I just recieved my kramer pacer classic from thomann (europe). I am happy apart from the non finished fret ends. After playing for 10 mins the side of my first finger is shredded. The fret ends are very rough like a file. How do i file these smooth? Don't want to damage wood on neck. Has anyone else had this problem?

[OokraMoO]

My frets came perfect?

[bongano]

I have had 3 pacer classics and frets went rough on all of them :nono

[kramerSquatch]

Same here, I've had three...all of them had sharp ends.

There is a file you can buy or pay your local guitar shop to file them down.

I bought a Mighty Mite neck with sharp frets, my local guitar guy filed it for $10 and it was pretty darn nice after that.

[OokraMoO]

Could it have just been the later Pacers this is happening to? I had one of the early ones and mines still fine n smooth?

[bongano]

Could it have just been the later Pacers this is happening to? I had one of the early ones and mines still fine n smooth?

Maybe in your case that day there were a chinese guy at work who knew how to smooth frets. In our cases there were not. :D

[weealf]

They are really rough. It cut my skin several times. The lower edge where fret end meets the wood on every fret sticks out and is razor sharp. If i hadn't bought from internet i would have returned it. Going to try and sand or file down tonight. I find it hard to believe that kramer lets these through quality control. It's shocking I have to finish off my own new guitar!!!

[sixstring]

Contact Kramer customer service.
call 1.800.4GIBSON

http://www2.gibson.com/Gibson/Talk-2-Us.aspx

If you do anything to it, it may void any warranty you have.

[kramerSquatch]

Return it to the retailer

[KRAMER Classic I]

Maybe the wood wasn't as dry as it should have been and the necks continued to shrink after the frets were installed. I would expect this to get worse the longer a guitar sits in a shipping container.

[mmmtacos]

Take a file. Lay the guitar on your lap. Hold the file parallel with the board. Gently file till the ends are
smooth.

I've done it several times. It's easy and quick.

[sixstring]

But to a brand new guitar?? No way I am not doing anything to it. Right back to MFR. fix it or give me a new one....

[Heikki]

Going to try and sand or file down tonight. I find it hard to believe that kramer lets these through quality control. It's shocking I have to finish off my own new guitar!!!

Did you manage to file the fret ends? How do you like the guitar other than frets behalf?

The price of these is tempting: http://www.thomann.de/gb/kramer_guitars_pacer_classic_pw.htm

[VooDoo666]

I would recommend contacting Gibson Customer Service and letting them know whether you clean them up on your own or not.
If we get reports that these things are happening, we can ensure that it stops.
It generally is due to the fret board shrinking a bit over time due to curing the wood incorrectly. If the guitar was inspected then sits in the warehouse for a month until ordered, they can become that way after final inspection.
Without feedback product is getting out to customers in conditions like this, we have no way of knowing and can't get onto the factory for their curing process or the inspection/warehouse centers for letting them through like that. We want it right and we want you to be happy.

[skydive69]

hes from scotland, he wears a skirt.....of course theyre sharp to him!:D and stefano, well.......hes just stefano:happy1


on a lighter note, what was said above.......the wood does shrink and this happens after sitting sometimes. i still have guitars ive made that over the past 20 years ive had to file the fret ends on them multiple times over that period because they end up sticking out a hair over time, and some ive done once and ive never had to touch again in the same amount of time. theres no rhyme or reason, the wood should be totally cured after that period of time.....it happens, but yes, if gibsons builders are using green wood that was just dried, that can happen and youll notice it happens pretty quickly. take it up with them, im sure they will either fix it, or if youre capable of doing it yourself, just do it and save yourself the problem of returns and shipping.

[bongano]

I bought mines from euro retailers too. Could be it was just a bad stock it was sent to us. Still weird to NIB guitars.

[jumbowolfe]

Yup, I've filed many a neck 2-3 times after doing it initially until I figured out like you guys, its the expanding and contracting that causes them to reappear sharp.



hes from scotland, he wears a skirt.....of course theyre sharp to him!:D and stefano, well.......hes just stefano:happy1


on a lighter note, what was said above.......the wood does shrink and this happens after sitting sometimes. i still have guitars ive made that over the past 20 years ive had to file the fret ends on them multiple times over that period because they end up sticking out a hair over time, and some ive done once and ive never had to touch again in the same amount of time. theres no rhyme or reason, the wood should be totally cured after that period of time.....it happens, but yes, if gibsons builders are using green wood that was just dried, that can happen and youll notice it happens pretty quickly. take it up with them, im sure they will either fix it, or if youre capable of doing it yourself, just do it and save yourself the problem of returns and shipping.

[Kramer James]

hes from scotland, he wears a skirt.....of course theyre sharp to him!:D

....waits for skydive69 to become blood pudding. :poke


That's kind've disturbing to hear about the board being too fresh.... if you're worried about the wood when you file those ends, just put down some masking tape. :thumbsup

[bkeen]

When I purchase sub $800 new guitars I expect this. ;):D

:thumbsup

[bongano]

When I purchase sub $800 guitars I expect this. ;):D

:thumbsup

This retiring wood issue is due to mass production and the willing of some brands to make quick profits. They buy cheap green woods, they put them in some ovens to dry quickly and they work on them without checking the quantity of water there is still in them. There would need just some more know how, accuracy and love for the instruments, things that Chinese don't have as they only love money. No matter how does it come in.
Yes, if it wasn't clear, I hate Chinese :D

[Kramer James]

This retiring wood issue is due to mass production and the willing of some brands to make quick profits. They buy cheap green woods, they put them in some ovens to dry quickly and they work on them without checking the quantity of water there is still in them. There would need just some more know how, accuracy and love for the instruments, things that Chinese don't have as they only love money. No matter how does it come in.
Yes, if it wasn't clear, I hate Chinese :D


Is it the Chinese who are that money hungary? It seems to me that they're offerring the cheapest price for production and it's the guitar companies who are making the big profits.

$800 is way too low of a quality cap. Look at the SM-1, it's made in the same factory as the pacer classic, yet it's over $900 and doesn't even have an original floyd like a similarly priced Gary Kramer or Charvel so-cal. Jacksons, Ibanez's, ESP LTDs, etc... you can find lots of models over $800 that come from Korea and such with substandard quality.

It's all about money. I mean, can you tell me the paint job on a Gibson Les Paul Studio cost $520 more than the "faded" finishes? Or is it that Gibson wanted to sell american guitars to those unwilling or unable to pay the inflated prices... and in order not to lower the inflated Gibson name, they use the instantly obvious and less prestigious "faded" colors.

Look at the price of the Yo Baretta Pro II... it was about $400 cheaper than the SM-1 and came with an original floyd rose. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but I also believe that they were made in Korea and not china. Why such a huge mark up?

Even the pacer classic (besides the mahogany instead of alder), it's easily $100 more than the previously comparable Yo models.

[gtraddict]

Yup - time to face reality. At this price point (sub 1K), you are not going to get perfection - it just ain't gonna happen. The positive is that you can play it for a couple months, then take it to a good setup man and for a hundred bucks or so have the frets leveled, crowned, polished and dressed - all which would cost well over a hundred bucks if the factory were to worry about it.

I really don't like it, but thats just the way it is. I did the exact same thing with my 3 Charvel production models - all came with sharp frets. Now, they play like a wet dream. Should we have to do that with a new guitar? Absolutely not - but business being what it is today you may as well get used to the idea.

[VooDoo666]

1. The SM-1 is Korean made and has the best Floyd you can get next to a German one. Actually...if you can tell the difference playing...you're a better man than the ones who have been test driving the SM-1. As of right now..NO Kramers are made in China...and GaryKramer uses the same or a Special Floyd.
2. Yo Barettas were made almost a decade ago..prices go up on everything.
3. If you knew how much materials, all of the buffing processes it takes to gloss a Gibson and actually pay a good wage to the guys doing it..$500 is about right...could see a bit less, but it's ball park.

Folks complain American guitars are over priced, but don't want jobs going overseas...gotta pay folks to keep them at your shop working everyday or skilled labor leaves. I never see anyone complain about PRS prices...they are the same or higher....same process, but Gibson gets the short end on it every time.
Done ranting....sorry if I offended.





Is it the Chinese who are that money hungary? It seems to me that they're offerring the cheapest price for production and it's the guitar companies who are making the big profits.

$800 is way too low of a quality cap. Look at the SM-1, it's made in the same factory as the pacer classic, yet it's over $900 and doesn't even have an original floyd like a similarly priced Gary Kramer or Charvel so-cal. Jacksons, Ibanez's, ESP LTDs, etc... you can find lots of models over $800 that come from Korea and such with substandard quality.

It's all about money. I mean, can you tell me the paint job on a Gibson Les Paul Studio cost $520 more than the "faded" finishes? Or is it that Gibson wanted to sell american guitars to those unwilling or unable to pay the inflated prices... and in order not to lower the inflated Gibson name, they use the instantly obvious and less prestigious "faded" colors.

Look at the price of the Yo Baretta Pro II... it was about $400 cheaper than the SM-1 and came with an original floyd rose. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but I also believe that they were made in Korea and not china. Why such a huge mark up?

Even the pacer classic (besides the mahogany instead of alder), it's easily $100 more than the previously comparable Yo models.

[KramerFanCentralVa]

$800 is way too low of a quality cap. Look at the SM-1, it's made in the same factory as the pacer classic, yet it's over $900 and doesn't even have an original floyd like a similarly priced Gary Kramer or Charvel so-cal. Jacksons, Ibanez's, ESP LTDs, etc... you can find lots of models over $800 that come from Korea and such with substandard quality.


Look at the SM-1, it's made in the same factory as the pacer classic .. No it is not. Korean made .. Pacer classic Indonesian made

Gary Kramer - Floyd Rose Special / Floyd Rose 1000 depending on model.
Charvel - Floyd Rose 1000
Jackson - Floyd Rose on 2000 US models - Floyd 1000 trems on some Jackson Licenesed on Japanese models.
Ibanez - Edge licensed trem
Esp LTD - Floyd Special ... Floyd 1000 on 600/1000 series ...

SM - 1 Floyd 1000 .... COMPARABLE TO EVERY OTHER GUITAR MENTIONED IN ITS PRICE RANGE.

If you have the talent and or need for $5000 hand made custom shop guitars .. feel free to buy them all. I do not, and for the life of me I have not been able to knock a Kramer trem out of tune no matter how much I beat on it ... and as everyone here knows ... that unit is a complete piece of S#*! right ? The facts get way too skewed in this forum at times ..... if you dont like the features or price point to the new Kramer guitars ... DONT BUY THEM. I dont buy things I dont like! :thumbsup

[mmmtacos]

What got skewed?

Just askin':)

I mean this is a guitar forum right? People have opinions;)

[Kramer James]

my bad, I couldn't find where they were made and were just going with whoever said china... and no offense taken Gibson rep, and i think Gibson's a fine company, but also and easy example when relating to the industry as a whole... but korea, china, indonesia.. what can you expect. Like I said, all the companies have guitars in the range.. but I think Carvin has shown the market price of high-quality american made instruments.. sure, they don't have a distributor to pay, but they don't sell same volume... they don't have a mass production line either, and they have options gallore.. and you can get fantastic quality for under a grand. It's apples and oranges... sorry to highjack the thread.

On the thread issue, you can set up and fine tune an economic import into the most awesome of guitars... and it will give you the opportunity to grow experience working on them.:thumbsup

[bongano]

I think this asian made products to keep prices low matter is a mystification.
Western brands produce their goods in asia only to make more profit. The same guitar could be made in western factories and sold at the same price if only companies decide to get less profit. They could import woods, hardware, whatever they want, but manufacturing, assembling and quality control should be made where are people who know how to do it. I know, it'll cost more than paying a 12 yo chinese kid and companies won't be so rich, but believe me guitars would be way better than they are now.

[KramerFanCentralVa]

What got skewed?

Just askin':)

I mean this is a guitar forum right? People have opinions;)

:) Nothing wrong with opinions and this is a FORUM, but there is such an pouring of outrage about these new Kramers that it is getting hard to absorb. Nobody has even played one yet to give thier opinion. Yeah the vintage Kramers were great guitars, but come on ... American series guitars made in Japan that cost American prices. I guess I am the lucky one, because I have never been the victim of poor QC or craftsmanship on an asian made guitar. I am sure the people doing the neck/fret work and things like that are trained luthiers even if they are Korean. I couldnt put frets in a neck at gunpoint .. :lol

[sixstring]

if only companies decide to get less profit.

:happy1 Would never happen!

[bkeen]

Why would a company exist if it were not to make profits? I don't work for free by any means!

You just have to accept that if you buy budget you are going to get less. If you pay more you should expect more.

Rarely do you get high quality for budget prices. Very few manufacturers build products to last like they did 50 years ago. There are quality built guitars out there that are built like they used to be but there is also a very high price of admission to own one.

Like they say, if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't...

:thumbsup

[bongano]

I meant less profit, anyway. I know they are there to make profit. But they only want to make always more profit disregarding good's quality having them built by not rights protected asian workers. Cheap manpower, cheap materials, bad results. And all this ends in very high money returns and domestic unemployment.

[gtraddict]

Why would a company exist if it were not to make profits? I don't work for free by any means!

Agreed - but here is where the problem lies. Used to be that companies would mark up a product 25 or 30%, then the retailer would mark up another 25 or 30% to the customer. Now, everyone wants to make more faster, so they now mark up 50 to 60% then the retailer marks up 35 to 40%, so we are paying more for less. Greed - don't ya just love it?

[Kramer James]

Very few manufacturers build products to last like they did 50 years ago. There are quality built guitars out there that are built like they used to be but there is also a very high price of admission to own one.

Like they say, if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't...

:thumbsup

:thumbsup

And when company "A" decides to go super cheap.. company "B" is forced to compete or lose business. Just like the rest of the economy... when company "Y" goes cheap and outsources to countries with slim regulations.... company "X" will be competatively forced to outsource as well, if they want to be major business players.



Yeah the vintage Kramers were great guitars, but come on ... American series guitars made in Japan that cost American prices.

Japan is known for producing alot more quality guitars than any other asian county. I'm sure we'd all love if the new Kramers were made in Japan.

The old american series was also assembled in the US dispite the japanes parts... and there was a strickly japanese line at the time as well (focus).. than were cheaper than the "american prices."

We're not pissed that Gibson is looking out for themselfs financially... we're not pissed that Gibson wanted a fun affordable line of guitars made in indonesia and korea. I think some of us are just bummed that they bought the Kramer name to release strikers while capitalizing off of the names and looks of the more professional original kramers.... leaving the "new" Kramer as strictly a cheap import brand on par with any other cheap import... when the could have taken the name/brand seriously.

I think we bought the Yo Kramers because they were a bargain... thanks gibson! We bought the "US" models because they were of high quality and relatively true to the Kramer name... they were very promising and impressive.

But seriously.... they should be called strikers by Gibson, or the 100 series by gibson because they didn't release any japanese or american models. I think calling them Focii would even be a long shot.

What if Lincoln went out of business... the name was bought.. and the new owner released a bunch of fords but called them lincoln continentals and such.... anyone with a lincoln continental would be like.. wtf and why tf.... and no, that's not a lincoln continental, it's a ford taurus... etc. That's the issue.

[gtraddict]

What if Lincoln went out of business... the name was bought.. and the new owner released a bunch of fords but called them lincoln continentals and such.... anyone with a lincoln continental would be like.. wtf and why tf.... and no, that's not a lincoln continental, it's a ford taurus... etc. That's the issue.

Lincoln IS just a glorified Ford, just as Cadillac is a glorified Chevy and Lexus is a glorified Toyota.

[JoeyM]

Lincoln IS just a glorified Ford, just as Cadillac is a glorified Chevy and Lexus is a glorified Toyota.

True, but those air-conditioned seats in the Lincolns and Cadillacs feels good on your ass in the summertime!:D

But, you gotta pay the vig for that! ;)

[gtraddict]

True, but those air-conditioned seats in the Lincolns and Cadillacs feels good on your ass in the summertime!:D

But, you gotta pay the vig for that! ;)

You certainly do. Thats the thing - do the Lincolns and Caddies have a few nice features not available on the high end Fords and Chevys - yes - but the additional cost makes those features easier to live without considering you can get 90% of the vehicle at 60% of the price.

I don't have any of the new Kramers, but I can use the Charvel USA Production Models as an example. A custom shop job will run 2500 and up, but a promod was around 800. Add a pro fret dress, level crown & polish, pickup(s) of choice, and you have yourself 90% of the custom shop guitar at less than half the price. It's a no-brainer in my book.

[Ronbo100]

At least the Feds aren`t going to be raiding the factory @ gunpoint in Korea. If this is happening in the USA to Gibson, it already sounds like the American Gibson`s are made in a foreign country. The Asian`s are starting to get Democracy and the USA is ( fill in your own words). Remember that 40 years ago we said Japanese cars will never replace good ol` American cars. Well the same thing is happening to the guitar industry. OMG, please don`t tell me that they make a lot of PRS products in Korea. Or Spector or............

[Kramer James]

the point is.... cadillac fans would be pissed if someone bought them and starting reproducing the chevy cruze and calling them Cadillac CTS's.

[bongano]

Fact is that asians (koreans, chinese, indonesians) aren't producing their own guitars. They're only manufacturing western brands' guitars cause they can do it cheap. They don't have the know how to put on the market their projects and their ideas. Just cheaply manufacturing to let western brands get more and more profit despising quality and domestic employment. I don't think this is the right way the world has to go towards. Let asians try to put their ideas on the market, let them try to produce new guitar projects: they will fail cause they aren't able to.

[kramerSquatch]

Asians are great at producing things. They are shorter, so they are closer to the assembly line..:lol

Im just joking, I heard that in a movie one time

[sixstring]

Asians are great at producing things. They are shorter, so they are closer to the assembly line..:lol

Im just joking, I heard that in a movie one time

That's terrible.....:happy1

[Rick S]

I'm amazed at the hatred of asians.:-x Pretty dim minded. Also, a guitar is basically a tinker toy in the grand scheme of making things. Do any of you have any real experience designing and making things? Doubt it.

[kramerSquatch]

I'm amazed at the hatred of asians.:-x Pretty dim minded. Also, a guitar is basically a tinker toy in the grand scheme of making things. Do any of you have any real experience designing and making things? Doubt it.

Oh Geez...unclinch, it was a joke.

[jumbowolfe]

Great movie!! That was the Dudley Moore flick Crazy People where the insane in the funny farm starting making marketing ads that were "real" for lack of a better description.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_f97gXEQkmUo/THUq-5vAkXI/AAAAAAAACxY/o-z7qoG6s9I/s1600/Crazy+People+Jaguar.jpg



That's terrible.....:happy1

[kramerSquatch]

Yeah that was it. Didnt they have an ad for Volvo too..."They're boxy but they're nice"

[Rick S]

Oh Geez...unclinch, it was a joke.

Not aimed at you man. I know where you stand.

[kramerSquatch]

Not aimed at you man. I know where you stand.

Cool..thanks. I withdraw the "Unclinch" :lol

[kramer.geetar]

I dunno, I mean I'd buy a MIJ guitar in some cases over a MIA. I've played an ESP (yes real ESP not ESP LTD lol) Vintage Plus, rosewood board and creme white body. Beautiful guitar and so solid. I've picked up numerous Fender Strats and Teles and I'm just not impressed built wise.

However, $800 for an instrument is dirt cheap in my opinion. Guitar players are always complaining about how expensive guitars are. Well look how much a high end piano costs, a violin etc. $3000 for a guitar that'll out last you I say is a fair price. I mean people spend $2000 without any thought on a computer that in 3 years will be slow and almost obsolete. A guitar thats played and loved in 20 years will just about get its mojo going and really settle into its own.
So I really don't see a problem with shelling out $3000+ on a well made instrument crafted by someone who knows what they are doing. Its maybe the best investment you can make especially considering they retain their value fairly well.

[skydive69]

youre preaching to the wrong forum here bro.......:happy1 only a handful here will see it as you do.



I dunno, I mean I'd buy a MIJ guitar in some cases over a MIA. I've played an ESP (yes real ESP not ESP LTD lol) Vintage Plus, rosewood board and creme white body. Beautiful guitar and so solid. I've picked up numerous Fender Strats and Teles and I'm just not impressed built wise.

However, $800 for an instrument is dirt cheap in my opinion. Guitar players are always complaining about how expensive guitars are. Well look how much a high end piano costs, a violin etc. $3000 for a guitar that'll out last you I say is a fair price. I mean people spend $2000 without any thought on a computer that in 3 years will be slow and almost obsolete. A guitar thats played and loved in 20 years will just about get its mojo going and really settle into its own.
So I really don't see a problem with shelling out $3000+ on a well made instrument crafted by someone who knows what they are doing. Its maybe the best investment you can make especially considering they retain their value fairly well.

[kramer.geetar]

youre preaching to the wrong forum here bro.......:happy1 only a handful here will see it as you do.

Oh I know Vin, but hey shit happens and people can believe what they want. Its not just here though as I've seen that mentality on other forums as well. I want it now, I want it done right and I want it cheap. Yea, good luck on that one.

[kramerSquatch]

i agree with what you are saying, but for most, especially hobbyists, a $3K guitar is not smart or feasible. For people who play in bands or play out regularly I can see spending that much.

Also, as a parent I wouldnt spend 3K for my child's guitar. Thats irresponsible.

[kramer.geetar]

i agree with what you are saying, but for most, especially hobbyists, a $3K guitar is not smart or feasible. For people who play in bands or play out regularly I can see spending that much.

Also, as a parent I wouldnt spend 3K for my child's guitar. Thats irresponsible.

Of course not, thats why you can get a decent guitar for $800 and let your kid rock out.
But why is say a $2000 guitar irresponsible? If your kid is taking it seriously, is in a band and/or practices daily then why not if they deserve it?

I've played tennis since I was 5 yrs old. Played competitively throughout my junior years and then onto prize money tournaments. 4-5 rackets @ $200 each every 1.5-2 yrs before I got a sponsorship for rackets, plus shoes every 2-3 months at $150 a pair, sometimes need 2 pair. Add to that strings and stringing labour. Clothes, lesson fees, court fees, tournament fees, travel expenses etc.....that $2000 guitar doesn't seem all that expensive now does it?

[kramerSquatch]

Of course not, thats why you can get a decent guitar for $800 and let your kid rock out.
But why is say a $2000 guitar irresponsible? If your kid is taking it seriously, is in a band and/or practices daily then why not if they deserve it?

I've played tennis since I was 5 yrs old. Played competitively throughout my junior years and then onto prize money tournaments. 4-5 rackets @ $200 each every 1.5-2 yrs before I got a sponsorship for rackets, plus shoes every 2-3 months at $150 a pair, sometimes need 2 pair. Add to that strings and stringing labour. Clothes, lesson fees, court fees, tournament fees, travel expenses etc.....that $2000 guitar doesn't seem all that expensive now does it?

Its just my opinion.

The tennis thing im all too familiar with. My wife got a full 4 year scholarship to an SEC school. And has taught professionally for 10 years now. However, there was no need for her to have a new rackets every year, or shoes costing $150 a pop.

I think a kid is not able to make the decision if he/she is going to use a $3000 guitar for the rest of their life. THey still have allot of growing to do. I also think that a 3K insturment isnt going to make that kid any better than a MIM Fender.

My daughter plays competitive softball, so I know about the teams fees as well. Yes in the end, it does add up to more than 2k. But if I was to spend all that it costs up front and she said she was tired of playing, i would be pissed.

Like I said its just my opinion. It is ultimatly the parents decision and their money. They can do what they like. Im just saying what I think.

I've played guitar since I was 8, as a hobby mind you. But my mother always got me mid range budget guitars. It I had had a 3K guitar, it wouldnt have made a difference.

But you did say that you played tennis for prize money tournaments and got endorsments..thus YOU were generating revenue. So that makes a difference.

Also, deserving it or not...as a parent I think my first job is to sescure the financial stability of my child's future, their education and their health care. So the 3K guitar would be second to all that. Too many parents dont prepare for the future thats why the kids bitch about debt.

[kramerSquatch]

Heres a story for you. I thought to myself one say. I have busted my ass to get where I am so im gonna buy myself one nice guitar. Just one nice one. So I bought a USA Gibson Les Paul Custom. Great Guitar. I love it, played great, etc...

When my second daughter came along, i thought, I really have no need for a guitar that expensive. SO i sold it. I now have the guitar that is in my Avatar. Epi Les Paul w/ Floyd rose. You know..other than the pickups..its not that much different. It actually stays in tune better than the USA model cause of the Floyd.

[kramer.geetar]

I agree with you for sure on not buying a kid a $3000 instrument. What I meant to say was if the kid is showing promise and has a drive and talent for it then why not get him something more high end if they deserve it. If you take Casey Jones as an example his parents bought him some nice guitars, the guy has drive and is a killer player. He's been working hard and I've been casually following him for the past 4 years or so on YT you can see how he's developing and maturing. Its great to see, and now he's in a great band.

However like you said in the end its the parents decision and I agree with that and everyones opinion and thats cool. The great thing about music is that you can pass on your instruments and amps to your kids to enjoy after you're done with them. I could take my Music Man Axis, buy a Marshall 1959 Plexi reissue and enjoy it for the next 20yrs.
Then if I'm no longer into playing much and (if I ever get married and have kids :D ) see that my son or daughter is into playing guitar I can give it to them. Its not like you can do that with ice skates, hockey sticks, tennis rackets etc. so I think thats a cool thing about musical instruments.

[kramer.geetar]

Heres a story for you. I thought to myself one say. I have busted my ass to get where I am so im gonna buy myself one nice guitar. Just one nice one. So I bought a USA Gibson Les Paul Custom. Great Guitar. I love it, played great, etc...

When my second daughter came along, i thought, I really have no need for a guitar that expensive. SO i sold it. I now have the guitar that is in my Avatar. Epi Les Paul w/ Floyd rose. You know..other than the pickups..its not that much different. It actually stays in tune better than the USA model cause of the Floyd.

Yea there are definitely some great bargains out there and some expensive lemons.

[kramerSquatch]

Yea there are definitely some great bargains out there and some expensive lemons.

You are right about that.

[kramerSquatch]

I agree with you for sure on not buying a kid a $3000 instrument. What I meant to say was if the kid is showing promise and has a drive and talent for it then why not get him something more high end if they deserve it. If you take Casey Jones as an example his parents bought him some nice guitars, the guy has drive and is a killer player. He's been working hard and I've been casually following him for the past 4 years or so on YT you can see how he's developing and maturing. Its great to see, and now he's in a great band.

However like you said in the end its the parents decision and I agree with that and everyones opinion and thats cool. The great thing about music is that you can pass on your instruments and amps to your kids to enjoy after you're done with them. I could take my Music Man Axis, buy a Marshall 1959 Plexi reissue and enjoy it for the next 20yrs.
Then if I'm no longer into playing much and (if I ever get married and have kids :D ) see that my son or daughter is into playing guitar I can give it to them. Its not like you can do that with ice skates, hockey sticks, tennis rackets etc. so I think thats a cool thing about musical instruments.

I agree with you here too. Casey is quite a talent and yes if he were my kid, I would probably buy him a 3K guitar. and that kid who plays Gary Kramer guitars. You are right about that. SO I see your point.

[Vengeance]

Then if I'm no longer into playing much and (if I ever get married and have kids :D ) see that my son or daughter is into playing guitar I can give it to them. Its not like you can do that with ice skates, hockey sticks, tennis rackets etc. so I think thats a cool thing about musical instruments.

I just got that new game Rocksmith and have been enjoying it. My 7 year old son has finally found a interest in playing guitar since it's a video game. I was sitting just watching him learn Satisfaction by The Stones and was just enjoying seeing him learn. It hit me how lucky he is. I started with a Lotus LP copy and a Gorilla amp. This kid is learning on a real LP through a $600 sound system through a private teacher on a video game. :banghead I had my cheapy stuff and my ear to learn songs.

I will enjoy the day my kids will have my gear. It makes me proud to be raising artists.

[kramerSquatch]

Whats also cool about learning today for kids...the superstars like Lynch, Phil Collen, etc...they all do you tube lessons. Very cool. When we were young you learned by ear or by reading those Guitar for the Practicing Musician mags

[kramer.geetar]

Yea, everything is very easily accessible nowadays. You can find what you're looking for within minutes and not only that, its free. Golf lessons, guitar lessons, how to's, everything is either on Youtube or on some site somewhere. Plus we got great places like KF where we can ask for help and get quality answers quickly.

[bongano]

I dunno, I mean I'd buy a MIJ guitar in some cases over a MIA.

Japan is a totally different situation than other asian countries. They know how to build a guitar cause they've always done it. Same as cars.
How could a poor chinese kid build a good guitar if he's never learn how to and if he has to build hundreds of guitars in a day time with cheap materials and a few dollars a day salary?



However, $800 for an instrument is dirt cheap in my opinion.

It depends on the quality of the guitar and on its real value. Some chinese/indonesian guitars sold i.e. at 800$ cost actually 1/10 to companies. Those are not cheap at the end due to companies profit.
At this point I'd prefer a devalued used one with better woods and hardware and better finished.

[Rick S]

It's nice to know that all asians aren't hated. Because hey, the Japanese have always built great guitars.:D Geez..............................:-x

[bongano]

It's nice to know that all asians aren't hated. Because hey, the Japanese have always built great guitars.:D Geez..............................:-x

Anything interesting to say about the topic?

[jumbowolfe]

This is what's funny to me, we all (including myself) never take into account inflation. Guitars actually, even though no longer made in America, have stayed around the same price, except say maybe an American Made Guitar. If you think about the time value of money thing, sub-$1000 is actually a good price for a brand new instrument, made overseas in Japan/South Korea/China (if made well and setup good). Funny too is how we all complained about Musicyo American Kramers were "too high priced" when you view the MSRP on the originals from 1987.

Just as an example, look at the Kramer Japan price sheets from the late 80s to compare today's prices. Yea, these are MSRP, but if you think street was a $200 less or so, with time value of money, then sub-$1000 for an overseas instrument is probably CHEAPER than time value of money from then, to now.

We paid around $.50-1.00 for a gallon of gas back then, if you think we average $3-$4 a gallon now, then thats a 3x multiplier on price. Gas is usually a good sign of time value of money as it most relates to what the world pays for transportation of the goods we import.

We complain about losing American Jobs to Japan/Korea/China - but we as Americans (or Euros too) don't want to pay much more for instruments than we did back in the 80's-90's. The truth is, we'll always buy where its cheap, its human nature.

1987 Import
http://www.vintagekramer.com/price/price87c.jpg


1987 USA
http://www.vintagekramer.com/price/price87b.jpg

[Kramer James]

The truth is, we'll always buy where its cheap, its human nature.


I'd say that's Macroeconomics more than human nature.... it's the market majority.. but it's not everyone's human nature... some will pay anything for more quality(especially professionals).

I think the biggest issue is not that these import aren't american quality (no one should expect that)... but rather... Gibson is using the Kramer name for korean and indonesian made guitars only... making Kramer a bargain brand without a quality line or anything. That's the real :bs

It's like buying out fender and only releasing squires(yet calling them Fenders). Wouldn't that be the most absurd thing to do to the fender name and fender fanbass? Yes, that would be ridiculous.... but you'd make alot of money!

[Rick S]

Hey, I never said the Japanese know how to build a guitar cause they've always done it.:D Yeah, those '50s and '60s Japanese guitars were works of art!:lol
They did learn quick though. Still, even though they made some incredible guitars they still have a certain stigma that alot of snobs can't let go.


Anything interesting to say about the topic?


I see what you are saying but it really isn't the same thing. Apples to oranges. Kramer never was anywhere what Fender is. Remember, 95% or there about of all Kramers were made in Asia. Apples to oranges.

It's like buying out fender and only releasing squires(yet calling them Fenders). Wouldn't that be the most absurd thing to do to the fender name and fender fanbass? Yes, that would be ridiculous.... but you'd make alot of money!

[Kramer James]

Do any of you have any real experience designing and making things? Doubt it.

Yes, in addition to international wholesale and retail marketing and distribution(not guitars though). But let's not make this a pissing contest... many of us might have experience and degrees in economics and business as well.. so becareful before you judge.

It's not racist to dislike china because they are notorious for cutting corners at the american's expense. They have no quality control (it's about capitalizing off of americans by taking their technology and making the cheapest product possible)... you're not going to find lead in your Toys from the US or Cananda. You're not going to find counterfeit nike's and everything else in a reputable country. China tries to rip us off everywhere... they have no respect for our patents... they are actively to stealling our technology to use it against us... they steal defense technology, they make rip offs of nearly every pharmasuetical drug we have.. etc etc.

So... put that in your chinese vaporizor and smoke it! Actually that was just a joke... i really wouldn't recommend it, because even though china sells super cheap rip offs of quality name brand vaporizors, they are made with cheap parts that are hazardous to your health... and that would be detrimental to any person with a life-treatening illness who needs to use that sort of thing.

[kramerSquatch]

I cant reaad this post cause I've been drinking since 5pm. Seriously...so I have nothing to say xauase i dont wanna read this shit right now. LOL

[JoeyM]

I just recieved my kramer pacer classic from thomann (europe). I am happy apart from the non finished fret ends. After playing for 10 mins the side of my first finger is shredded. The fret ends are very rough like a file. How do i file these smooth? Don't want to damage wood on neck. Has anyone else had this problem?

So, were you able to file those fret ends?

(original topic of this thread, remember?)

[Kramer James]

Kramer never was anywhere what Fender is. Remember, 95% or there about of all Kramers were made in Asia. Apples to oranges.

and 100% of Barettas and Pacers were made in Japan and assembled in the US ('86 and after). They focii were also made in japan... and no one liked anything else back in the day (even the focii weren't as respected as they should have been).

Not all of asia is alike.. just like the americas.

bottom line... there are no professional quality production Kramers being made today. Personally, i'd say that the late 80s "american" line was professional(enough for all the great 80s bands).

No pro's will be playing new kramers unless you have a personal connection to Gibson and they build one from scratch in their custom shop. It's no a pro-artist line anymore... so sharp frets should be expected along with everything else.

[sixstring]

So, were you able to file those fret ends?

(original topic of this thread, remember?)

Inquiring minds want to know...:)

[kramer.geetar]

If I had only $800 - $1000 to spend on a guitar I'd be buying used. Take the Kramer Focus series for example. German OFR, MIJ ESP made and cost around $300-$350 for a good one. Pop in some SD's or DiMarzio's and pots and you're set. Its not just the old 80's Kramers that are good but MIJ Fenders, Tokai's, and so on. Just have to get lucky, and know what you're buying.

[bongano]

If I had only $800 - $1000 to spend on a guitar I'd be buying used. Take the Kramer Focus series for example. German OFR, MIJ ESP made and cost around $300-$350 for a good one. Pop in some SD's or DiMarzio's and pots and you're set. Its not just the old 80's Kramers that are good but MIJ Fenders, Tokai's, and so on. Just have to get lucky, and know what you're buying.

This is exactly my thought.
And don't forget that bargains are always there: in that 800/1000$ price range you could also find mint slightly used MIA Wolfgang, Axis, Fender Stratocaster etc.

[jumbowolfe]

Well, not to piss off my Gibson friends who make Kramers, but yes there are. They're made in California, only thing is it says "Gary" in front of the word Kramer. :)

And there were some KILLER American Kramers made about 3 years ago. If only we would have supported them and drove up demand to keep those being made, at the sub-$1000 price!

[QUOTE=Kramer James;567307]
bottom line... there are no professional quality production Kramers being made today. QUOTE]

[Kramer James]

Well, not to piss off my Gibson friends who make Kramers, but yes there are. They're made in California, only thing is it says "Gary" in front of the word Kramer. :)

And there were some KILLER American Kramers made about 3 years ago. If only we would have supported them and drove up demand to keep those being made, at the sub-$1000 price!

[QUOTE=Kramer James;567307]
bottom line... there are no professional quality production Kramers being made today. QUOTE]

I agree completely! Gary Kramer is the true present day Kramer in my book.

I hear your point on the Yo Americans, but I think that was a marketing issue. If the Yo American Pacer reissue or '85 Baretta reissue were released side by side with american gibsons in large mags like musiciansfriend, they would have sold very well I think.

The graphics were too much for people though I think. While they were cool, not everyone wants a graphic, they cost a decent amount extra, and each graphic is only going to appeal to limited personality types.

Point being, a production run of 100% USA kramer pacer and baretta reissues would sell in my opinion. Just imagine a $1,500 USA gibson Kramer '85 Baretta reissue, next to a Les Paul Studio for $1,400.

[mmmtacos]

That's exactly why they won't ever push Kramer as a top line instrument. Can't have them outselling Gibbys.

I'm happy with what Kramer is doing now though. Sub 1K axes that have all the main things we like - Floyds, Duncans and for those who like them, EMGs

Oh And I can't forget Ebony boards on the SM. Personal preference on that one, but a real nice touch that they could have skimped on and use Rosewood.

[JoeyM]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Joey-M/images-4.jpg

[mmmtacos]

And how 'bout those fret ends:D


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Joey-M/images-4.jpg