Should I buy a SD JB?

[OokraMoO]

I'm looking for a new pickup for my Pacer Classic and was wondering if the Seymour Duncan JB would be a good option? Mostly going for a VH 1984/5150 sound and I'll also be playing some GnR/Motley Crue etc like that.

Would this be my ideal pickup or is there something better??

[amerturk]

That would be a great choice. Remember, the JB was stock on most USA model Kramers from the 80's. It does have a great tone and comes in hot at 16.3k

[fourk]

yeah man a SD JB is always a good choice!

[Blix]

IMO a Custom Custom will be better for the tones your are mentioning, first, the CC is what EVH had in his guitars at that time, and Slash was/is using the Alnico II pickups which have lots in common with the CC, just not as hot.

[OokraMoO]

Hmmmm, the reason I said the JB was because this guy completly nails 5150/1984 with one and the one in this Pacer is reallyyyyy muddy sounding for me.

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When did EVH have the CC in his guitar? Roth or Hagar era?

[spade2you]

I have a JB in many of my guitars. Will it sound exactly like EVH? Nah, but more than a lot of stuff out there and it's still good at covering most rock sounds in general.

[Blix]

Hmmmm, the reason I said the JB was because this guy completly nails 5150/1984 with one and the one in this Pacer is reallyyyyy muddy sounding for me.

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When did EVH have the CC in his guitar? Roth or Hagar era?

I'm at work and can't listen to the clip, I'll check it out tomorrow morning when I get home(night shift sucks)
He used a CC from Fair Warning to when he started using the Music Mans.
On the Metro forum there is a guy who worked with Kramer in the golden years , and they set up guitars for Eddie with JB's and 59's as well, but the 5150 and Franky had CC's in them. Now he have used all kinds of stuff of course, but those are his most used guitars you know :)

[Blix]

Ok, listened to a few of his clips, and he is far from nailing the tone, way too much gain and too muddy. Now a CC would help, it's a cleaner sounding pickup than a JB, and it has those "sweet" highs you hear on both 5150 and 1984. :)

[OokraMoO]

Yeah his other vids kinda' suck I just thought 5150 sounded nearly spot on.

What about this custom shop 78' Evenly Voiced Harmonics pickup?
Supposidly it was designed by Ed and Seymour but Ed never wanted it released or something so Seymour released it with Evenly Voiced Harmonics instead of EVH and called it the 78'?

[kramernoob]

I've got a guitar with the CC and I can definitely hear the EVH 'quackiness' in there...but it's not all that powerful for other forms of 80s metal, fairly weak bottom end so I prefer the JB overall

FWIW the closest I got to motley crue was with a dimarzio super distortion, it has that dry sound

but you need the right amp and FX to get near someone's tone, it's not just the pickup

[Blix]

Yeah his other vids kinda' suck I just thought 5150 sounded nearly spot on.

What about this custom shop 78' Evenly Voiced Harmonics pickup?
Supposedly it was designed by Ed and Seymour but Ed never wanted it released or something so Seymour released it with Evenly Voiced Harmonics instead of EVH and called it the 78'?

Over on the Seymour Duncan forums there have been lots of questions about EVH tone (surprise) and the answer posted by Evan Skopp(one of the SD bosses) is basically that Seymour has wound THREE different pickups for the EVH over the years.

1. A vintage-output PAF-style back in the seventies, later replicated and sold as the Seymour Duncan "1978" model.

2. A warmer Alnico II pickup in the eighties, sold as the Seymour Duncan "Custom Custom" model.

3. The Frankenstein replica pickup, produced exclusively for Fender - and it's basically the Custom Custom with thirty years of artificial age on it, with degaussed magnets.

[Blix]

And I have both CC's and the EVH Frankenstein pickup, they sound 99.5% identical :)

[Rick S]

A pickup alone ain't gonna get you what you want. Will it get you closer? Maybe, maybe not. Good luck!:thumbsup

[Blix]

Yeah, a pickup alone doesn't make that sound for sure!

But it's a semi-important part of the puzzle :)

[OokraMoO]

I think I'm gonna go with the Custom Custom then! Yeah I know it won't get me the sound on it's own, but I've never had a QUALITY pickup before, always been stock Epiphone or worse...

Thanks for the help guys!

[kramernoob]

in that case any powerful seymour duncan will sound great to you ;)

[Blix]

I think I'm gonna go with the Custom Custom then! Yeah I know it won't get me the sound on it's own, but I've never had a QUALITY pickup before, always been stock Epiphone or worse...

Thanks for the help guys!

:thumbsup CC rocks.

[Blix]

And, while you install it, you have to remove the tone control from the circuit. :)

[KramerUK]

Don't forget that to everyones ear a tone will always sound slightly different. And you will want to swap the neck pup the minute you put a quality pickup in the bridge!

I would have said a Jazz if you were going for a JB in the bridge, but not sure what would compliment a CC in the bridge.

[71VH-MD]

:thumbsup CC rocks.

+1 on the CC:thumbsup

[literary]

It really does provide a tone for 80s guitar sounds. Virtually everyone was using them!

I do have the custom custom. I never put it my guitars. I think I will install it in my next guitar.

[-=Scorch=-]

Dimarzio Tone Zone..... seriously, try one.

[Blix]

Dimarzio Tone Zone..... seriously, try one.


For what he wants, a Tone Zone isn't the right choice. While it's(TZ) a good pickup, a CC have the right characteristics for his needs.

[OokraMoO]

And, while you install it, you have to remove the tone control from the circuit. :)

I'd really like to make it so its like a standard guitar man, I just don't have the knowledge even when you shown me lol. I watched seymour duncan install pickups in a les paul, it looked easy enough.

When I get the CC I want the guitar to just be standard like

2 volumes, 1 tone, no treble bleed crap, also now the volume control seems to do hardly nothing, just kinda' like an on/off switch, only takes off a little amount of gain etc, I want it to clean up quite nicely.

Next time you're in the back of your pacer could you take some up close pics of the whole cavity so I could literally just copy it when I get the pickup?

Oh did I mention you guys fucking rule seriously, the most helpful bunch of guys on the whole internet I swear to you! lol :urock:toast:thumbsup

[Blix]

The problem with your Pacer Classic, is that it will not clean up with the tone control that's in it now, remember I said clipping the treble bleed didn't help all that much, it was still mostly on/off. Taking the tone control out of the circuit was the only fix for it.
But chances are it's the value of the tone control cap that's all wrong, I'll check the value in my Special when I get it back from the refret, because I still have the tone control connected and it cleans up like it should.

We will figure out your Pacer somehow, and teach you how to solder! :thumbsup

[gilbertwannabe]

i find seymour duncans to sound very generic in tone. i coudl be proved wrong. but i am a DiMarzio and carvin pickup guy. if you want to nail that same great tone that everyone has, a Duncan is perfect for you:thumbsup

[helocene]

SD Custom Shop 78 in a Stagemaster doing 5150, much better tone.
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I'm of the opinion that the Custom sounds better than the Custom Custom, I like the bite the ceramic gives vs the AlNiCo II

[jonasaberg]

...also now the volume control seems to do hardly nothing, just kinda' like an on/off switch, only takes off a little amount of gain etc, I want it to clean up quite nicely...


Reading this made me wonder if it's the wrong type of pot? There are two kinds of pots; linear- and audio taper. One of them is better for volume pots because of the way the human ear perceives sound. If I could only remember which one it was...I always get them mixed up :D

I'm guessing it's the audio taper as I seem to remember something about the human ear not perceiving sound in a linear way.

[mmmtacos]

You can't sound like ED!

You will never sound like him!!!

You would have to cut his fingers off and surgically graft them onto your hands, because tone comes from your fingers!!
















































:happy1:happy1:happy1

Tone Zone is a good choice for later era Ed tone, or a Wolfgang or HP Special pup.

I have a CC that I'll try in my 5150 when I get it done. I can't wait to hear it:headbang

But I have had a Wolfgang and currently own an HP Special. Also I put a TZ in my Petrucci and IMO any of those 3 are a good choice. Nice upper mids but not ice picky highs like a JB has (just my opinion there):)

[Blix]

SD Custom Shop 78 in a Stagemaster doing 5150, much better tone.
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I'm of the opinion that the Custom sounds better than the Custom Custom, I like the bite the ceramic gives vs the AlNiCo II

Nah, that doesn't sound too good, but a 5150 isn't the right amp for doing those tones anyway, so it's understandable.

The SH-5 does kick ass, but for doing those tones the OP is mentioning, the CC is still the better chice.



gibertwannabe, with all due respect, saying Duncan sounds "generic" is BS, but hey, that's what the Duncan fanboys says about DiMarzio as well.. ;)
Truth is both makes great pickups, I've used enough of both to know, and I have both brands in my guitars.

And Gilbert never sounded better than when he was using Duncans ;) :)

[Keen Anthony]

I forget, which Duncans did Paul Gilbert use? Did he ever use Duncans on his Dino guitar (the red RG750)?

[Blix]

IIRC he used a DD wired in parallel for the first Racer X record, on the second it was a JB (wired in regular series)with the Duncan mini humbucker in neck.

[OokraMoO]

The problem with your Pacer Classic, is that it will not clean up with the tone control that's in it now, remember I said clipping the treble bleed didn't help all that much, it was still mostly on/off. Taking the tone control out of the circuit was the only fix for it.
But chances are it's the value of the tone control cap that's all wrong, I'll check the value in my Special when I get it back from the refret, because I still have the tone control connected and it cleans up like it should.

We will figure out your Pacer somehow, and teach you how to solder! :thumbsup

Awesome! I literally can't wait!

Just need a find a great deal on a CC now :D.

[kramernoob]

Nah, that doesn't sound too good, but a 5150 isn't the right amp for doing those tones anyway, so it's understandable.



the 5150 isn't the right amp to get the 5150 tone? :D

[Blix]

the 5150 isn't the right amp to get the 5150 tone? :D

Yup, not even remotely close. Remember those didn't come out until 1991, On the 5150(in 1986) album EVH used his trusty old Marshall.
He didn't start using the 5150's until around the F.U.C.K album, where he used a proto for a few songs.
And at that time there was a huge change in his tone because of him retiring his old Marshall.

The 5150's are really cool, but you can't come close to his earlier tones with it.

The type of tones coming from his old cranked plexi, you can't replicate with preamp gain.

Channel 2 on the EVH 5150 III does an earlier VH tone fairly well.

[O Diego]

Very nicely played and great sound!!!

[helocene]

Nah, that doesn't sound too good, but a 5150 isn't the right amp for doing those tones anyway, so it's understandable.


I believe he says somewhere in the comments he's using a Line 6 straight into the computer not a 5150.

[OokraMoO]

Yup, not even remotely close. Remember those didn't come out until 1991, On the 5150(in 1986) album EVH used his trusty old Marshall.
He didn't start using the 5150's until around the F.U.C.K album, where he used a proto for a few songs.
And at that time there was a huge change in his tone because of him retiring his old Marshall.

The 5150's are really cool, but you can't come close to his earlier tones with it.

The type of tones coming from his old cranked plexi, you can't replicate with preamp gain.

Channel 2 on the EVH 5150 III does an earlier VH tone fairly well.

I thought Eddie secretley started using a Soldano when he toured 5150 (not in the studio though)???

[helocene]

Nope, a shload of plexis, a Bradshaw built rack system with a pair of Eventides(instrumental to the sound imo)
Attached some pics of his 1986 tour rig.

[Blix]

I thought Eddie secretley started using a Soldano when he toured 5150 (not in the studio though)???

As already mentioned, nope. He did use the Soldano on F.U.C.K almong with the 5150 proto, a CAE preamp setup and his Marshall on Pleasure Dome IIRC.

His Marshall was used exclusively through OU812.

Listen to this, Summer Nights with an SLO, very different tone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2zPv7lIIVA

Personally I wish he could get back to using Marshalls.

[Blix]

I believe he says somewhere in the comments he's using a Line 6 straight into the computer not a 5150.

Ah true, but yeah, doesn't matter... :)

[helocene]

Well to be honest the whole thread doesn't really matter because we're all talking apples and oranges. His new Pacer Classic has a mahogany body. A CC(or any pickup) is going to sound completely different in a mahogany vs. alder vs. maple vs. etc...

[AlanH]

I think I'm gonna go with the Custom Custom then! Yeah I know it won't get me the sound on it's own, but I've never had a QUALITY pickup before, always been stock Epiphone or worse...

Thanks for the help guys!

What amp are you using as that might be the problem?

I've got two guits with JBs in them and two with 490s in them. I actually think the stock Kramer 910T is quite bright and very usable and not too dissimilar to the JB. I certainly wouldn't describe it as muddy. Yes, it's not quite as articulate as the JB but if you want something really articulate then you want an overwound PAF style pickup (as EVH used early on.)

My 490Ts are also PAFs and have a lot of mid range grunt and top end bite. While they're not hot at just over 8Kohms they do take high gain amp/pedal settings very well...........and they're very cheap bought from Thomann.de.

Alan

[Blix]

Well to be honest the whole thread doesn't really matter because we're all talking apples and oranges. His new Pacer Classic has a mahogany body. A CC(or any pickup) is going to sound completely different in a mahogany vs. alder vs. maple vs. etc...

Well I have the very same guitar, and it doesn't sound that much different from my poplar Pacer Special with the same pickup.

The "mahogany" used in the Pacer Classic isn't the same mahogany used in say a Les Paul for sure, it's some sort of Asian Mahogany which to me sounds more like your typical basswood/poplar.

[Blix]

What amp are you using as that might be the problem?

I've got two guits with JBs in them and two with 490s in them. I actually think the stock Kramer 910T is quite bright and very usable and not too dissimilar to the JB. I certainly wouldn't describe it as muddy. Yes, it's not quite as articulate as the JB but if you want something really articulate then you want an overwound PAF style pickup (as EVH used early on.)

My 490Ts are also PAFs and have a lot of mid range grunt and top end bite. While they're not hot at just over 8Kohms they do take high gain amp/pedal settings very well...........and they're very cheap bought from Thomann.de.

Alan

Going from the stock Pacer pickup to a CC was a night and day difference for me. From a muddy mess to clear and sweet.

[VooDoo666]

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a Mahogany body...so not quite like a Maple or Poplar 80's Pacer.
The CC sounds really good in them though a good compliment is a 59 classic in the neck. Change the volume pot out to an Audio taper. That will solve the sudden roll off issue, it's not the bleed mod. The Classic comes with a Linear taper pot and that combined with the mod is causing the sudden roll....future productions of the classics will have that change.
I've been loading about every Duncan imaginable in the Classic and that's the 2 pups IMHO that open her up.

[Blix]

Good to hear you will change the pot! I just put in an old DiMarzio 500k I had in mine :)

[OokraMoO]

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a Mahogany body...so not quite like a Maple or Poplar 80's Pacer.
The CC sounds really good in them though a good compliment is a 59 classic in the neck. Change the volume pot out to an Audio taper. That will solve the sudden roll off issue, it's not the bleed mod. The Classic comes with a Linear taper pot and that combined with the mod is causing the sudden roll....future productions of the classics will have that change.
I've been loading about every Duncan imaginable in the Classic and that's the 2 pups IMHO that open her up.

So how come you decided to go with the linear taper pot in the first place? What advantages does it have over the audio taper? Or was it a cost issue?

[VooDoo666]

So how come you decided to go with the linear taper pot in the first place? What advantages does it have over the audio taper? Or was it a cost issue?

No cost difference. Gibson and Epiphone use primarily Linear pots on their volumes...been a standard for LPs for a long time. It was done basically as the norm. The Audio will work better for the Pacer, so the change is in place. Once guitars started getting into the field, we found that the Audio taper was going to be the way to go to make this mod work best. In most lower cost guitars it's pretty common for both Linear and Audio to react about the same, but we have checked it with the pots we get from "our" factories and an Audio will make an improvement. it's akin to changing a pot value for instance. We saw a need for improvement on this setup and made it.

The difference is:
What is the difference between Audio and Linear taper pots?
"Audio and Linear taper pots have the same total resistance but differ in which position of rotation the pot will reach the 50&#37; value. Linear pots are usually marked with a B or Lin (examples 250KB, B250K, 250K Lin) and will reach 50% of its total resistance in the 50% rotation point. Audio taper pots are usually marked with an A or Aud (examples 500KA, A500K 500K Aud) and will decrease most of the resistance in the last 50% of the rotation. This can give a more gradual audio reduction is some cases. Most manufactures and builders either use Audio taper pots for volume and tone or linear for volume and audio for tone. However, if a problem of exists where a volume or tone pot has no effect on the sound, try a changing the taper. How to check the taper with an ohm meter: Set the pot to the center position (50% rotation) and measure the resistance between the center pin and each of the outer pins. If the the resistance is equal (50% of the pots value) the pot is linear. If the values are not equal, the pot is an Audio taper."

[AlanH]

No cost difference. Gibson and Epiphone use primarily Linear pots on their volumes...been a standard for LPs for a long time. It was done basically as the norm. The Audio will work better for the Pacer, so the change is in place. Once guitars started getting into the field, we found that the Audio taper was going to be the way to go to make this mod work best. In most lower cost guitars it's pretty common for both Linear and Audio to react about the same, but we have checked it with the pots we get from "our" factories and an Audio will make an improvement. it's akin to changing a pot value for instance. We saw a need for improvement on this setup and made it.

The difference is:
What is the difference between Audio and Linear taper pots?
"Audio and Linear taper pots have the same total resistance but differ in which position of rotation the pot will reach the 50% value. Linear pots are usually marked with a B or Lin (examples 250KB, B250K, 250K Lin) and will reach 50% of its total resistance in the 50% rotation point. Audio taper pots are usually marked with an A or Aud (examples 500KA, A500K 500K Aud) and will decrease most of the resistance in the last 50% of the rotation. This can give a more gradual audio reduction is some cases. Most manufactures and builders either use Audio taper pots for volume and tone or linear for volume and audio for tone. However, if a problem of exists where a volume or tone pot has no effect on the sound, try a changing the taper. How to check the taper with an ohm meter: Set the pot to the center position (50% rotation) and measure the resistance between the center pin and each of the outer pins. If the the resistance is equal (50% of the pots value) the pot is linear. If the values are not equal, the pot is an Audio taper."



That's very useful info, Voodoo.

While we have you, can I ask what the origin of the 900R, 910T pickups is vs. the Gibson 90R/91T.

I quite like 'em.........and, based on their appearance, they seem to be made to a pretty good standard given the price point of a Pacer Classic 2010.

Many thanks

Alan

[Keen Anthony]

Just heard that Cabo Wabo performance. That's a soldano? Ugh. I really didn't like the sound of that at all. *ducks*

[Blix]

Just heard that Cabo Wabo performance. That's a soldano? Ugh. I really didn't like the sound of that at all. *ducks*


You're not alone... :)

[SDRM17]

ookramoo, how'd u make out? I was reading your thread and now I'm left hanging...lmao

a couple yrs ago I was looking to get a pu for a Ibanez project i was working on and was seriously gonna get a custom custom. I found a JB on ebay ridiculously cheap so I had to pop on it. That guitar immediately became my fav.

a couple friends of mine use Pearly Gates in their Pacers and they love them.

[OokraMoO]

Well I got the CC working the other day and so far am loving it! Still yet to try a JB yet though, would love to.

[SDRM17]

Throw a JB in that Epi and watch it come to life.
Thanks for the update and glad to hear things worked out well.