How to paint a body w/out primer?

[bongano]

I have an unfinished body I'd like to paint without putting on it too much paint coats.
So I'd like to paint colour straight on wood excluding primer coats.
Is there anything I shall do before not to have grain when finished?
Thanks.

[fett]

Are you talking stain or paint?:thumbsup Use a grain sealer is you want to paint raw wood.

[bongano]

Rattle can nitro paint. :thumbsup

[fett]

You still have to seal the wood. However, I have an Ibanez Blazer thats right down to the wood. Grain and feel. It's an 80's, so I'm just going to stain it. It's sealed enough.:thumbsup

[bongano]

Seal the wood.. with what?
There's still the problem that I have to find out a similar product to what you will say, available here... That is, if you'd say "a sealer" it means nothing to me. :D I know I'd need "a sealer". If I have to "seal" something it's obvious that I'll need "a sealer". But what kind of product is a "sealer"? For what is usually used? How it looks? :thumbsup

[fett]

Do they have paint stores in Italy?:D

[dan]

go to stewert mcdaonalds website and buy some sanding sealer basicly you need a sandable paste that dries hard.apply with a bondo applicater sand all off except whats in the grain prime and paint

[mrwhipper]

Stefano, you need to fill pours and the grain of the wood protecting them from swelling with some sort of coating. I know you want to keep the film build to a minimum. Some of the best ways, are the ways that I PMed you with. The one way I described you should be able to have a great looking finish with only about 4 mils (4 one thousands of an inch or the thickness of a dollar bill) of coatings on the body. I would use coatings with an activator and stay away from reversibles like nitro technologies. Especially at those thin film builds.

[aceman_831]

can automobile primer be used w/ out the grain sealer?

[mrwhipper]

can automobile primer be used w/ out the grain sealer?

Yes but there are tricks to make it work well.

[aceman_831]

do you know any tips lol? cause i need some info on that haha

[mmmtacos]

You gotte seal it or you'll end up spraying more coats (which you are trying to avoid) because the wood will soak up the first coats of nitro

So you're back to spraying more coats, except the extra coats are more expensive, so you need to prime it ot seal it.

Not an expert but I do know that.

I'm sure someone will chime in with the proper sealer compatible with nitro

[pel666]

Go to your regular paint store, and pick up some Nitro Primer...hell, I found some good stuff in a store called 'Action'. Kind of a dollar store, picked a few cans up for a few Euros. It will be compatible with your Nitro based paint :thumbsup

[bongano]

Mies, I've always used nitro primer, but this time I'd like to try something different having the wood right below the paint. I mean, if you look at some relic jobs, there where paint is worned you don't see primer but wood. If I'd relic a paintjob that has primer (usually white or grey) below, I'd see white or grey colour. I wouldn't want to see that but bare wood. At the same time I'd like finished paintjob without visible wood grain. Dunno if I explained well? :scratchhe

[_xxx_]

You can also use shellac, first layer mixed with some pumice powder for sealing. The old way. Keeps the grain but makes the surface as smooth as a mirror.

Shellac is a great primer and everything will stick to it, but IMO it's even better to just finish the whole thing with it, no nitro or anything. Nothing looks like it - lots of work though, a proper shellac finish takes about four weeks.

[bongano]

Seems my paint-pusher :D just found a transparent nitro sealer... let's see.

[mrwhipper]

do you know any tips lol? cause i need some info on that haha

PM me.

[mrwhipper]

Stefano, did I misunderstand you? Do you want to paint this body or are you looking to keep the wood finish?

[_xxx_]

He wants the see-through finish thing from what I understand, not solid color primer.

[mrwhipper]

He wants the see-through finish thing from what I understand, not solid color primer.

Aaaaa. Like the trans blue finishes. That is pretty easy to do. Stefano, is this correct?

[bongano]

:nono I want the body painted. Don't want to see the trans finish. Just want that if i'd scratch the colour paint, below I don't see the colour of the primer but the wood. :D

[jumbowolfe]

Some good suggestions above, but sometimes what I do is use leftover urethane clear from another body I'm clearing on unfinished bodies. If you use Nitro, get ready for shrinkage.

I would suggest a good sealer of some sort that is compatible with a catalyzed finish, and highly suggest you NOT use Nitro if you want the finish to remain smooth for years, and not eventually shrink.

Stefano, prep is always the hardest part. Trying to shortcut the process or go through other chemicals or means that won't be compatible with eachother is a recipe for disaster when it comes to finishes. I speak from experience on this.

I've shot nitro, urethanes, rattle can acrylics, and I've even tried some polyurethane brush on stuff for guitar finishes. Urethanes win, every single time. Ask Dino here on our forum who does the occassional EVH paint jobs (dinosguitarworks I think). He tried several options through the years with rattle cans and other finishes, only to land on Urethanes and love them.



:nono I want the body painted. Don't want to see the trans finish. Just want that if i'd scratch the colour paint, below I don't see the colour of the primer but the wood. :D

[bongano]

Mike, are there in USA urethane paint rattle cans available?

[Kammo1]

Totally agree with you Mike :thumbsup I am now sealing all my bodies in a clear Polyester which has no grain drop and dries rock hard in 24 hours at a steady 18-20 degrees.
Like you Mike I have tried everything over the years and would not touch nothing now that isn't a 2K finish it's just not worth it for my applications.

[mrwhipper]

Agreed.

To answer your question. Paint companys have dabbled with an activated coating in a spray can using a bladder method. With in an aerosol can there is two bladders, one with the coating and the other with the activator. and when you shake the can the bladders burst and the two materials combine. The problem with this tech is 2 fold. If the can is shaken too hard in transport and the pot life of the paint once the components are combined.

[bongano]

I was just asking to myself, as I'd like to have less paint thickness over the wood, would be right to spray urethane or poly paints on it? As far as I know they are very thick paints, while nitro is very thin, so I guess it would fit more to what I'm expecting?
And about shrinkage, I know Gibson is using nitro since ever but I've never seen any shrinked paint on them. Saw many other kind of blems but no shrinkages on Gibson's finishes...
Just a thought.

[mrwhipper]

I was just asking to myself, as I'd like to have less paint thickness over the wood, would be right to spray urethane or poly paints on it? As far as I know they are very thick paints, while nitro is very thin, so I guess it would fit more to what I'm expecting?
And about shrinkage, I know Gibson is using nitro since ever but I've never seen any shrinked paint on them. Saw many other kind of blems but no shrinkages on Gibson's finishes...
Just a thought.

I can explain this to you. Give me a bit and I will PM ya.

[jumbowolfe]

Yup, absolutely dude. Paint has gotten better in 2010, using old shit like Nitro IMO is really a waste of time.

The whole debate about Nitro, that I've talked about 1000 times on the forum is that, its thin because its a celluar or "organic" based compound to make the clear. It deteriorates over time and shrinks. Stefano, Nitro does shrink. Look at any Les Paul thats about 5 years old, chances are, you'll see where the clear has shrunk where you can see texture in it. Thats why tonal purists love nitro, because those old 50's Les Paul's shot with Nitro have whithered away to basically no finish 50 years later. They associate Nitro with good tone, but in reality, its the lack of finish that they're referring to, not Nitro being a good tone paint.

Urethanes ARE NOT THICK, Stefano. You guys consistently confuse Urethanes with Polyesters and Polyurethanes. Polyesters are thicker and shot thicker as well, and is generally what Kramer and Charvel used back in the day. Urethanes can be shot just as thin as nitro yet in the end you don't get the shrinkage. There was an interesting artcle where Ed discusses the finishes they tried on the new EVH's. They tried nitro, polyester, no finish, tung oil, gunstock oil, and in the end, the best balance of tone and protective "pretty finish" ended up with Urethane.

If you seal the wood good, do your prep work on working up your sanding levels such as 200-400-600-800 THEN prime it, overall you won't have alot of grain problems. Prime it correctly, put the correct amount of clear on, and I assure you, you will not hear any difference in tone from that process as opposed to the same process with Nitro.

I'm speaking from experience and from what I've heard from one of my best friends who used to paint Porche's for a living, in addition to quite a few guitar restorations. Additionally, guilt by association, my grandfather was a paint and body man in the business for years, I've been painting guitars since I was 18 years old. Its taken me 22 years to figure out why urethanes and other modern finishes work so much better than traditional nitros and other paints. I'm far from a master, but I do know what the easiest route generally is when attempting to paint guitars. Invest the money in the right equipment and follow the right procedures with the prep, and you will never be disgusted or pissed off with the end result when you're finished. I've chunked guitar bodies across my garage before in frustration, this painting crap can really piss you off.

When these guys get $300 to paint a guitar body, I'm telling ya, thats not enough!!!




Totally agree with you Mike :thumbsup I am now sealing all my bodies in a clear Polyester which has no grain drop and dries rock hard in 24 hours at a steady 18-20 degrees.
Like you Mike I have tried everything over the years and would not touch nothing now that isn't a 2K finish it's just not worth it for my applications.

[bongano]

Got it Mike and thanks for very useful explanations. :thumbsup
The fact is I'm not a pro-painter, neither I'm making thousands of paint jobs that could justify the purchase of sophisticated equipment. I've no enough free space to set up a serious paint room, either. I'm making paint jobs just for my amusement, hence the rattle cans solution. So, paints are giving me the most confortable way of doing are nitros, as I could not find urethane paints in rattle cans. I've to deal with that. I've tried also 2K clear finish -I used on Alex now owned Bengal Pacer- and I found'em great but too thick for what I've in mind atm. Need very thin coats between wood and final finish that's why I was looking for a way to reduce them, even trying to cut out the primer.
I'll try to put transparent primer/sealer and sand it till it will remain only on pores and grain, getting the base surface as smoother as i can, then will apply colour paint just enough to get my work looking good.
I'll keep you update on it.

[mrwhipper]

Mike, Refinish is my industry and your explanation was spot on. Very nice job!:thumbsup

[_xxx_]

Just one little correction, urethane is something entirely different and was used in medicine (as narcotics for animals, in the 70ies against blood cancer etc.), with paint you're always talking about polyurethane. People just like abbreviations, even when they're totally wrong - urethan is NOT the monomere of polyurethan as one would blindly assume.

Carvin for example clearly talk about polyurethane in their spec sheets. And let me add, despite that being the thinnest and most durable finish, I hete the feel it has. I prefer polyester and/or acryllic and nitro is still the finish with the best feel, despite it not being that good in technical sense.

[mrwhipper]

Just one little correction, urethane is something entirely different and was used in medicine (as narcotics for animals, in the 70ies against blood cancer etc.), with paint you're always talking about polyurethane. People just like abbreviations, even when they're totally wrong - urethan is NOT the monomere of polyurethan as one would blindly assume.

Carvin for example clearly talk about polyurethane in their spec sheets. And let me add, despite that being the thinnest and most durable finish, I hete the feel it has. I prefer polyester and/or acryllic and nitro is still the finish with the best feel, despite it not being that good in technical sense.

There are different types of urethane. Yes, there is a polyurethane, acrylic urethane, copolormer urethane just to name a few. It has to do with the resin structure and the linking points with the isocyonates. You can not link all urethane with the same feel because they can be designed to have different feels to them.

[jumbowolfe]

Great explanation, thank you!!!


Has anyone shot any of the newer water based urethane? I've been wanting to experiment around with it, I know Bo Pittman was starting to use it last time I talked to him.



There are different types of urethane. Yes, there is a polyurethane, acrylic urethane, copolormer urethane just to name a few. It has to do with the resin structure and the linking points with the isocyonates. You can not link all urethane with the same feel because they can be designed to have different feels to them.

[mrwhipper]

Great explanation, thank you!!!


Has anyone shot any of the newer water based urethane? I've been wanting to experiment around with it, I know Bo Pittman was starting to use it last time I talked to him.

I have a lot of experience with waterborne coatings. As a matter of fact my blue Pacer Imp, 310, the black on my flames 2000 and my Patriot bass have waterborne basecoat on them. Which coatings specifically are you talking about.

[Kammo1]

Mike I have been experimenting with a company here in the UK that do Water based paints and to be honest they are not very good at all in application and gloss lustre. If you do paint with waterbased paints use a 2k basecoat to get the build and hardness and then top with waterbased topcoats to get the look you're after. Have to say no matter how well you put the stuff on and polish you "CANNOT!" get the gloss like the Polyurethanes and Polyesters. I have finally after 30 years in the game found products that work for me and nitro is the last finish I would ever use, hope this helps.

[mrwhipper]

Mike I have been experimenting with a company here in the UK that do Water based paints and to be honest they are not very good at all in application and gloss lustre. If you do paint with waterbased paints use a 2k basecoat to get the build and hardness and then top with waterbased topcoats to get the look you're after. Have to say no matter how well you put the stuff on and polish you "CANNOT!" get the gloss like the Polyurethanes and Polyesters. I have finally after 30 years in the game found products that work for me and nitro is the last finish I would ever use, hope this helps.

I agree on a lot of points. All of my guitars that have waterborne basecoat have urethane underneath it and urethane clearcoats on top of it. I have not seen (not that there isn't one out there) a waterbase clear coat that I like for the applications that we would need them for.

With that said, there is a certain company (cough) that has an AWESOME waterborne basecoat. It is one application (no multible coats) and has half the film build as solvent basecoats, it is exceptionally flexible (which makes it chip resistant) and is very easy to spray.

[_xxx_]

There are different types of urethane. Yes, there is a polyurethane, acrylic urethane, copolormer urethane just to name a few.

Sure, but I was referring to just "urethane" with no preambles (C3H7NO2), which is not a paint at all and has nothing to do with any of those.

Just splitting some hairs, I know...

[mrwhipper]

Sergej, I PMed ya. :)

[Kammo1]

Mr Whipper why use a Polyurethane sealer then a water based base coat and then a Polyurethane top coat ? Might as well stay within a system of "ALL" Polyurethanes ? just curious as to why use this one product when 70% is all Poly ? must be a logical answer :)

[mrwhipper]

Mr Whipper why use a Polyurethane sealer then a water based base coat and then a Polyurethane top coat ? Might as well stay within a system of "ALL" Polyurethanes ? just curious as to why use this one product when 70% is all Poly ? must be a logical answer :)

Great question. The answer is....

The waterborne basecoat I use is a copolymer basecoat. Which means it is a urethane resin. Very strong, very thin, covers in 1 coat, very fast (5 minutes after it flashes and I can mask for another color). I would not use anything else, except when I need candies for flames and effects and airbrush work. Then I would use normal solvent basecoat.

[Kammo1]

:thumbsup PM sent :)

[mrwhipper]

PMed ya back buddy!:)

[flyingvfreak]

Lots of Good stuff in here all good Points. I know what you are trying to achieve . I would use a grain Filler, then a Lacquer clear Sanding Sealer, Wait about 2 weeks and let it shrink and harden, sand it and shoot Acrylic Lacquer over it bout 10 coats hand rub it out and in 5- 10 years it will start to Rub off and wear off like the Old Fenders!! :thumbsup That just how I would Approach this Finish,, I Used everything and a Urethane PRochoice But I also love the Old School Lacquer Jobs Nothing beats a hand rubbed Lacquer Finish :toast