Focus neck setup question

[Craig Johnson]

Alright here's what I have. Focus 3000. Compared to my other guitars this one has the highest action of any of them. I mean it's high. If I lower the bridge the slightest bit the strings will fret out or buzz badly. The string height is noticably higher near the top than the bottom. Would it be a truss rod issue? Is there an easy way to do a truss rod adjustment? The adjustment is on the heel of the neck.

The nut looks really weird too. There is about 1/4" overhang between the fretboard and string tree. See Below:
<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/?action=view&current=SANY0031-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/SANY0031-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[NightRider]

The over hang is fine.... most are like that... fret the neck at the first and last fret and see how much of a gap you have... if its big the trust rod needs adjusting.... its a pain just because its at the heel

[NightRider]

here is one site on adjustment
http://www.guitarplayerscenter.com/blog/guitar-repairs-upgrades/guitar-setup-step-1-neck-evaluation-and-truss-rod-adjustment/

[moku]

this site is pretty good too for many repair/set up issues: http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/trussrods.htm

[amerturk]

I've never seen an overhang like that on a focus. 1/4th of an inch?

Need more specific info on the fretting out. Where does it fret out? Near the nut? or at what frets?

Don't worry, the forum bros can fix this. :)

[Craig Johnson]

I've never seen an overhang like that on a focus. 1/4th of an inch?

Need more specific info on the fretting out. Where does it fret out? Near the nut? or at what frets?

Don't worry, the forum bros can fix this. :)

Even with the action high enough to drive a truck under I still get buzzing starting at the 3rd fret. If I lower the action 1/4 turn it frets out at the 11th fret. I have never seen a nut with that much overhang either, but I haven't seen tons of Focus' either. Was the over hang clear in the picture?

[amerturk]

I'd take the neck off and see if the neck has been shimmed. If there are two, take one off and start from there. It may need a little shim under the nut too.

First though, get a straight edge and lay it on the frets. Any gaps? It will either be straight as an arrow, low in the middle or high in the middle.

Need better pics of the nut and OFR with strings on. PM sent.

[moku]

Even with the action high enough to drive a truck under I still get buzzing starting at the 3rd fret. If I lower the action 1/4 turn it frets out at the 11th fret. I have never seen a nut with that much overhang either, but I haven't seen tons of Focus' either.

do what tim says above w/ the ruler to assess the neck. then...

one by one, check list the following possibilities:
1) neck is back bowed and buzzes = loosen the truss rod.
2) neck is up bowed or dead straight yet buzzes = a. frets may be uneven (some may have lifted up) b. or neck is warped at certain places, which is fixable but i wouldn't bother; i'd get another neck; c. neck pocket is shimmed too high like tim said.
3) locknut is too tall = if so, i would file the locknut shelf down a bit. but it sounds like this may not be the issue. something is up with your frets or neck (bowed or warped).

need better pics for us to help....

[Tricky]

A little general info here.
These are just things that can be checked without any special tools.

A lot of you will already now this stuff, but if you don't, here goes...

Make sure you are tuned to pitch and Re-tune after each adjustment is made.

Make sure the neck is bolted up tight and flush in the pocket. I've seen necks bolted up tight, but were not flush on one side.

Put a capo on at the 1st fret, fret the E string at about the 16th fret, or where the neck meets the body. Check relief at the 7th fret with feeler gauges between the string and the 7th fret. Normally, relief should be somewhere between .008 and .011, determining on what gauge strings you use and your playing style. Some like more or less, or none. For now, Adjust the truss rod until you have no relief. Flat neck.
Remove the capo and sight down the neck.
Look for warping/twisting. If the neck visually looks good and straight, then check string hight at the 15th fret with a good rule. One that will at least measure in 32nds.
Start by adjusting string height for the 1st and 6th strings to 3/32.

Next, check the string height at the nut for each string with a feeler gauge between the string and the 1st fret, open string. .021 is good. Much higher or lower and the nut will need an adjustment.
Now go back and adjust the truss rod so you have about .010 relief at the 7th fret. Re check the string height at the 15th and readjust if needed.

Remember to check tuning after each adjustment.

At this point you should have:
string height at 15th - 3/32
string height at 1st - .021
relief at 7th - .010

If after these adjustments you are still having problems with fretting out, make note of where.


If it is fretting out on all the strings up high, then the neck may be shimmed to much.

Another common problem up high, is string buzz, or fretting out due to a hump in the neck around where the neck meets the body.

Also surfacing a little fall away in the board or frets toward the heel will help with high string buzz.

If you have the trem down as low as it will go and you still have high action at the 15th fret with proper relief at the 7th, then the neck needs to be shimmed.

If it is fretting out only on the middle strings, and the string height at the nut is good, check the trem saddles and make sure someone hasn't mixed them up and put them on in the wrong order.

If after a proper setup, you have string buzz, or are fretting out in random places, you may have lifting or worn frets.


Hope this is helpful.
If I missed anything, speak up. :)

[Craig Johnson]

I'd take the neck off and see if the neck has been shimmed. If there are two, take one off and start from there. It may need a little shim under the nut too.

First though, get a straight edge and lay it on the frets. Any gaps? It will either be straight as an arrow, low in the middle or high in the middle.

Need better pics of the nut and OFR with strings on. PM sent.

PM sent:thumbsup

[Craig Johnson]

Ok. So here is where I'm at now. Yeah, I know I just got back to this one cause I've been working on my '87 Retta. :censored Another story there.

I have the neck as straight as an arrow, well a slight bow in it but very slight. You can still drive a truck under the strings beginning at the nut (about twice as much as my others). It still buzzes even though it's that high (compared to my others). The frets have 0 wear on them. The trem isn't flush it's actually up (floating)1/8" above the body. There is a shim in the neck. No shim in the nut. :scratchhe
Any ideas.

[Tricky]

Is it fretting out everywhere, or just in certain places?

What is the string height at the 1st fret, and at the 15th fret?

Can you post some pics from the side, of the whole guitar, whole neck, at the nut, and at the bridge?

[Craig Johnson]

It buzzes all the way down the neck. It gets worse the further down the neck you go. Let me know if you need more pics. I can't measure these with a feeler gauge. I don't have one.

The nut:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

First frets:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=002.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/002.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Middle of neck:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=004.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/004.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Heel of the neck:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=007.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/007.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

The bridge:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=005.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/005.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

The whole neck:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=009.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/009.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

And yes the items in the background seem to be necessary.

[pointyheadstock]

I have had guitar necks sitting too low in the pocket, and had to shim way up, with playing cards (mostly cause I have mutts) but anyway man, it could be a high fret bitching your project up, or a radius problem.. I dunno.. good luck though man I know its a bummer having issues but you will eventually figure it out and these folks on here have the answers.. Dont worry, help is around the corner.

take care

Oh yes and thats some fine alkeyhall in the backdrop

[NightRider]

which end of the neck pocket is the shim:scratchhe... it should be towards the bridge side

[moku]

craig, i can tell from the photos (especially the last one, but also the 2nd) that the neck is up bowed. but it seems you have a combination of issues...
1) shelf of the floyd locking nut is too shallow. need to lower that by filing, so the lock nut sits a bit lower. this would also solve the over-hang a bit.
2) might be the photos, but your neck looks warped.


<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=009.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/009.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

there is gradual dip down from the 9th and starts to come back up around the 19th fret. that may be why you're having all the buzzing even when the relief is so high (up bow).
pls take a couple of similar pictures but from both sides of the whole neck (like picture 6)... it would help determine if the warp (if any) is on both sides or just on one side.
3) you have to get the neck straight. adjust the truss rod to see if you can remove the up bow. once you get rid of up bow, and the neck is straight, then see if there are areas that are warped. then we can deal with fret issues.
4) like rick says, as for the shim, the side toward the pups should be shimmed.

[moku]

here's a picture of the lock nut on my pro axe... not too low or high

at the nut:
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr109/mokushozen/IMG_0525.jpg

at the 12th:
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr109/mokushozen/IMG_0526.jpg

you should take some photos of the neck like this, on both sides (but don't have to take the neck off):
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr109/mokushozen/IMG_0524.jpg
http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr109/mokushozen/IMG_0523.jpg


it's times like this that we wish you lived near so we can actually see what the hell is going on with your focus neck... relying on photos is not the way to go... mybe you can drive up to gary's place, go fishing and have him take a look at your neck? :D

[Craig Johnson]

It'll be this afternoon, but I'll take some pics of both sides of the neck like you did.

[Tricky]

You need to adjust the truss rod and try to get the neck straight. Tighten it about an 1/8th of a turn at a time.
You can use a framing square for a straight edge, and get a set of feeler gauges from the auto parts store.
Their cheap and will come in real handy for future setups.

Make sure the shim is all the way back at the heel of the neck pocket.

I would hold off on the nut issue for now.

[Craig Johnson]

The shim "cardboard" is all the way back at the heel.

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=001-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/001-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Here is a picture of the neck I added almost 1/4 turn then the nut started getting tight: Looks straight to me but with string tension added I dunno.

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/?action=view&current=003-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/Foci%20neck/003-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Putting it back together now. Maybe I should remove the cardboard shim and use a razor blade like all of my other guitars.:scratchhe

[moku]

that neck looks straight. i'd put it back on the body (with razor blade as shim) and make sure it's still straight once the strings are back on. if not, then ur truss rod is not doing its job.
if the neck is straight and still buzzes w/ open strings but not when fretted, then that means the problem is at the nut. see here for various type of buzzing. determine which type is the one your having with this neck: http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/buzzing.htm
if all correct, i would focus on lowering the nut shelf. maybe others have other suggestions.

[amerturk]

It actually looks like you need a little more shimmed. Get a thin piece of biz card paper and give that a shot on top of the other shim. I know it's a pain in the ass, but you can save time by just stringing the two E strings and then check it.

Don't forget to put a straight edge on the frets to make sure it's straight...the naked eye like to fool you at times. :)

[Craig Johnson]

I give up! The fretboard is straight. So the truss rod is working. 2 shims in the neck pocket lowered the action to what looked like "normal", buzzed like hell. Took 1 shim out and replaced with another shim. action is higher and still buzzes like hell. When I say buzz I mean from the 2nd fret to the 21st fret on every string. I've had it apart 8 times now. If I wasn't doing this one for my nephew I would use it for firewood.

[moku]

now i'm thinking with that locknut overhang that much, it may have been a defective neck... maybe the overhang is just too much (almost half of its size!), so even after it's tighten, when you strum the strings the locknut actually vibrates causing the strings to hit the frets :scratchhe

you must feel so frustrated... i would too... but unfortunately when we play around w/ vintage guitars issues like this is bound to happen once in a while. this may be your first problem w/ kramers?

if all else fails, you may consider this option: http://cgi.ebay.com/Kramer-Focus-neck-Made-Japan-ESP-Very-good-condtn-/120585075888?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1c136e3cb0 (of course i have no connection w/ the seller). just a thought. it looks like a nice neck that will not go for too high. you could sand it down and decal it. it's a piece of cake.

[NightRider]

I am still gonna say neck angle and trus rod.... if its straight without string tension.... it won't be when you put the strings on.... but all this is said without guitar in hand

[NightRider]

or that bottleof Evan Williams sitting there.... either not enough... or to much:)

[Craig Johnson]

All of my Kramers have needed some work, truss rod, pickup, wiring issues, cat hair but nothing like this. Tuned to pitch I checked the neck with a straight edge. No light between the frets and the straight edge was lying flat on all frets. When I get home today I'm gonna try some creative shimming. With the 2 shims in the neck the strings looked normal. So I'm gonna bring home some more shims and try heel and nut shims. I would just buy another neck but I'm supposed to give it to him Friday. So I might try a neck off of one of my others and see what happens. Or there might be a fire sale in the Klassifieds.

[kramernoob]

remember you need a little bit of relief in the neck, not for it to be dead straight.

can't say I've ever had such a problem, but I'd try shimming the nut to raise the strings at that end, and also check if all the frets are down properly. try hitting them with a rubber hammer or something...

[Craig Johnson]

I'll be all over it againg when I get home. I have to finish this before Friday. Look guys thanks for all the help.:thumbsup

[Tricky]

Double up on the neck shim.

If you had to tighten the truss rod a 1/4 turn to get the neck straight with it unbolted and with no string tension on it,
you will need to adjust it some more with the guitar strung up.

If you take the pickguard off, do you think you will be able to adjust the truss rod with the neck bolted up and strung to pitch?
If you can, then put a capo on at the 1st fret, hold the E string down at the 17th fret, and measure relief at the 7th fret.

If you don't have a capo, this will work. :D
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/Tricky_01/Focus%204000/01.jpg

Notice how the nut fits on this neck.
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/Tricky_01/Focus%204000/02.jpg

If you don't have feeler gauges, you can compare the the relief with the thickness of a .010, .011, or .013 gauge string.

To speed op the process of pulling the strings off and putting them back on,
you can first lodge a 9v battery wrapped in electrical tape between the guitar body and the underside of the Floyd.
Under where the fine tuners are.
Loosen the strings enough to pull them off at the trem saddles,
tighten the locking nut down on the loose strings so the strings wont tangle as bad.
This way, you wont have to pull the floyd off, and it will make tuning back up alot faster.

[Craig Johnson]

2 shims in the neck. I brought home real shims. The action is bearable almost normal up top and higher at the heel. Still buzzes on all strings but #1 E.

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/?action=view&current=001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

At the 12th:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/?action=view&current=002.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/002.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

The heel:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/?action=view&current=005.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/005.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


The bridge:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/?action=view&current=004.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/004.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Side view of neck:

<a href="http://s884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/?action=view&current=003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac48/CraigJohnson1/003.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Shim the nut and see what happens???????????

[Tricky]

From looking at the pic, the string height at the nut doesn't look low.

Measure from the top of the fret to the bottom side of the string.

If you have any spare strings or string clippings, you can use them to gauge string height.

Check the relief at the 7th fret on #1 and #6 strings.
Compare it to the thickness of a .010, .011, or .013 string.

See if the string height above the 1st fret, on all strings, is close to the thickness of a D string. (.024-.026) .021 is ideal.

What is the string height at the 15th for the #1 and #6 string?

[Tricky]

PM sent.

[mmmtacos]

You guys are measuring from the board to the string:lol

It should be from the top of the fret:D

Here's the measurement on my guitars. I set them up the same more or less.......

String height at the first fret - .020" all strings just to get it roughed in. Floyd Rose nut I set the outside Es at .020" to start

Next capo the first fret, and hold down at the last fret - .010" to .012" at the 8th or 9th fret. It depends where the middle of the bow is. I have one that gets almost all of its bow starting from the 7th down to the first fret:D

Once you have the nut and relief set you can play with the action to get it where you like. I go with 4/64" at the 12th. Sometimes I can get by with 3.5 /64" but it's not common for me.

If it still buzzes after that it has some uneven frets.

If you can get it to those specs and are comfortable with it, you can then lower the nut and tweak the truss rod.

Don't forget that when you do a neck adjustment that it won't finally settle for a couple days

Anyways, that's how I do it. Your mileage may vary:D

[Tricky]

4/64 = 1/16.
With all the trouble he is having, 3/32 or even 2/16 will be a big improvement.

I'm starting to think someone has messed with the frets. Look at the tangs.
I know when I did a refret on a F6000, the factory tangs were undercut.

[amerturk]

Tricky, I think you're on to something...this just doesn't make since and the frets do not look stock. Good call. Also the nut cut does not look normal at all. Relogo'd neck? Maybe it's time just to buy another 3000 neck...they don't go for much.

[Tricky]

With the way that nut shelf looks, I wonder what the measurement is from the nut to the 1st fret. :scratchhe
Should be 1.431". Or a tad less than 1 7/16.

Anyone out there have a Focus neck with the tangs showing?
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/Tricky_01/Fret%20Job%20Focus%206000/08800.jpg

[Craig Johnson]

With the way that nut shelf looks, I wonder what the measurement is from the nut to the 1st fret. :scratchhe
Should be 1.431". Or a tad less than 1 7/16.

Anyone out there have a Focus neck with the tangs showing?
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/Tricky_01/Fret%20Job%20Focus%206000/08800.jpg

Fron the nut to the first fret is around 1 7/16.

[Craig Johnson]

I talked with my sister. I'm gonna wait a couple of weeks before I drive up ther so i have a little more time. Anyone got a Foci neck or American they are looking to get rid of?

[Craig Johnson]

Thanks Tricky. You are the bomb. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me. You were a lot of help.:urock

[Tricky]

It was cool talking with you bud, and thanks for the recording info. :thumbsup

Let it settle in for a couple days. Its getting there.