Proposal for Gibson/Kramer new line

[Pacer Guy]

Ok, I've sat back and watched the new Charvel Production models for the past year now. They seem to be selling fairly well with the exception of the Tele style, which is on it's last production run.

So my thoughts are, how about Gibson follows suite?
Why not bring back the Pacers??
Special
Imperial
Deluxe

It could be done as Charvel has done. Limit each model to 150 units as Charvel has done or even start at 75 units per quarter to see how the market would react.
Do each one in a specific color (like Charvel)
But instead of offering each model in black, just do one model per quarter in black to help keep the costs down, and to help move the other models.

To keep the cost's down, it would probably need to be done as Charvel has. One choice of hardware color. Either a Maple or Rosewood fingerboard, but not both. But I would assume the maple board would be the more cost effective way to go (one piece compared to two)
There could be a poll taken to let the general population determine the choices of hardware color and fingerboards.

Hardware... The purist in me would rather see the German made Floyd in place of the Korean Floyds.
To keep the cost down I could understand the use of the Korean Floyd, but I think Gibson has already shown with the Imperial that the German Floyd can be used as well as Schaller tuners and still keep the cost down, plus Kramer has the added bonus of a hardshell case compared to the gigbag that Charvel includes.

I feel that if Gibson could do this and keep the price at 1199.00 (100 bucks more than the Charvel), that they could really cut into the Charvel market. But it would take advertising the guitars which I'm sure wouldn't be to hard to accomplish. A few reviews, a few seen on youtube and the biggest part, dealers that actually carried the guitars, which it looks like the dealer list is growing more each day, and the Kramer name could be revived as we knew it :thumbsup

I know it's basically copying Charvel, but so what. Really isn't everything just a copy of a copy anymore??
Kramer was one of the first real Superstrats produced, and deserves to be back in the limelight.

I know, I'm probably nuts, but I would love to see this happen. I know the economy blows. But would anyone by into it. I know a lot of us by into the, we can just buy an old Pacer Special or so forth for half the money or less, but really, wouldn't it be nice to be able to buy a new one :thumbsup

Opinions welcomed :toast

[j-ozzy]

yeah new quality usa kramers wuld be nice..
cuz kramer isnt known for its usa guitars at this time..

at least not in the shop that i work

i proposed my boss into selling kramers his reaction was "i dont want those ripoff epiphone guitars.."

he doesnt even know there is an usa line...

[amerturk]

Custom shop baby...made to order but without the custom shop prices.

Example: Stock colors, 1984 reissue or limited issue, whatever you want to call it with a different numbered neckplate so it's not confused with the last batch.

Hell, get a drive thru window why your at it. :)

[KramerUK]

Hell, get a drive true window why your at it. :) :happy1 :happy1

But I agree with you Tim, its all CNC not they have to cut each one by hand

[Blitz]

I think the solution here is much more simple than anyone thinks. They own all rights to Kramer so why don't they just make the models that kramer made its name with?
I mean you got a good range of guitars with different tones and styles. Its not rocket science Gibson has been selling the Les Paul, SG Explorer for like decades Fender the same with strats and tele's.

I'm guessing they have the design and drawing for the guitars right? if so start work if not do what they did with the Baretta reissue and the JS.
Its so simple you got Pacer imps, pacer deluxe, pacer custom, vanguard, baretta and re-release the Bass guitars to.

Honestly if it was my call I would have done this a few years back then maybe release a few special editions but not until you have a solid standard production range.

Offer the original designs in various colour options as well some to reflect the 80's style and some for the more modern players tastes and there you go job done.

Like I say its not exactly rocket science is it! its a guitar company.

I think the lesson here is don't try and reinvent the wheel, its good enough as it is.

Chris

[KramerBassFan]

I think the solution here is much more simple than anyone thinks. They own all rights to Kramer so why don't they just make the models that kramer made its name with?
I mean you got a good range of guitars with different tones and styles. Its not rocket science Gibson has been selling the Les Paul, SG Explorer for like decades Fender the same with strats and tele's.

I'm guessing they have the design and drawing for the guitars right? if so start work if not do what they did with the Baretta reissue and the JS.
Its so simple you got Pacer imps, pacer deluxe, pacer custom, vanguard, baretta and re-release the Bass guitars to.

Honestly if it was my call I would have done this a few years back then maybe release a few special editions but not until you have a solid standard production range.

Offer the original designs in various colour options as well some to reflect the 80's style and some for the more modern players tastes and there you go job done.

Like I say its not exactly rocket science is it! its a guitar company.

I think the lesson here is don't try and reinvent the wheel, its good enough as it is.

Chris


I like this!! :jump

Thanks.

[fullyc]

If I were looking for a quality American made Kramer like the Pacer I wouldn't want any thing but an original Floyd.:urock

[kramerSquatch]

Great ideas...I wonder if it would ever happen and how many years it would take them to get them into production. Honestly...I got so tired of waiting on new stuff to come out, I have moved on to ESP's now.

[floydkramer]

I would love to see real Kramers in the stores.
one that are quality and can compete with the new Charvels and the SL models and so on.

[RoteGitarre]

How much arm twisting is it going to take to get Gibson to start actually producing these guitars and utilizing the Kramer name to its full potential? There really isn't much I can say that hasn't been said before, but leaving the Kramer brand to languish in the doldrums of mediocrity is just stupid. Who better to challenge Jackson/Charvel, Dean, etc? The name is practically in the toilet now. If it's sat on and left to rot for too much longer, the purpose in even having it will cease to exist. Brand recognition among younger players is practically nonexistent, and those that have heard of Kramer think they're junk.

With a bit of advertising and a few key sponsorships this thing could happen, but that is contingent upon a good product, as Pacer Guy described. Given a new line of American made axes with the proper price point, :hitit , and I think others would too.

[kramer.geetar]

Well how much is the current Pacer Imperial? $1200 correct? and its got a German Floyd on it already so that in itself should cut big time into Charvels market. Just gotta get it out there for people to see and notice, get some ads into Guitar World magazine or something. Personally though about the Floyd I'd rather see a Gotoh Floyd then a Korean made OFR but thats my opinion. I don't think the price difference would be that much.

[KRAMATIME]

you guys are on the money.
i have done a lot of marketing and design work myself and the above ideas are a pretty decent plan.
maybe not exact or perfect,But it would put things on the right track.
i had the pleasure of having a hand in the design of a new model for gretsch two years ago.
the guitar is a pretty good seller because it gave gretsch fans what THEY were looking for,and at the right price point.
i had one of the first new charvels last year.
not a bad guitar,but still lacking in many ways.
and in my opinion overpriced for what you get.
i did not keep the charvel.
i have a new trans red imperial.it is such a better guitar in so many ways.
people that have seen it and heard it think its a $3000 guitar.
then they ask what it is,when i say its a kramer they look stunned.
most people dont even know kramer is around anymore.
yet when they see my guitar they are amazed with the quality,the feel and tone,and the vibe of the kramer.
i consider myself lucky to have found a great bunch of guys like you fellas here on this site.
because if i did not find this site i would never have known kramer was still around.much less have found out about the imperial.
my kramer is my #1 guitar now.
there are so many bland guitars out there right now.
the time is right to come to the market with the tried and true models in some different color runs.
if gibson plays it right the brand could be mainstream again and sell big.
you guys are on the money.
i hope gibson gets the message.
pulling a site down in jan and not having anything to sell for eight months is not good for any company no matter what the excuse is.
proper planning would not have let this happen.
and im speaking from a retail marketing background.
something went wrong because back in jan they said the transition would take just a few weeks.
then the time just kept changing.
just to be clear,im not bashing gibson.
im rooting hard for kramers success.
but its clear something went wrong.i hope they can learn from what ever that was and get the ball rolling.
just think of the lost sales in the past eight months.

[KrameRemarK]

Gibson don't appear to have the time, focus, $'s / budget, or desire to do anything serious with the Kramer brand.

All that appears to be happening, is that the name / brand is taking a dive .... which is real sad. :-|

Sell it to someone who wants to give it a serious go.

Just my 2 cents after observations and certain experiences to date. :-x

[unchained1984]

It's intersting to see all the comments / views here on Don's thread, if you do a quick search you'll see many of the same views going back a good few years. The recent beak Pacer Imp should IMO have been the axe to get out there, Gibson by nature is pretty conservative and the recent downturn worldwide isn't exactly going to make them feel comfortable about pushing one of their acquisitions out all across the high street.

At this moment in time the only thing that would make sense to me would be for a controlled perceived 'prestige' line to run alongside the higher volume lower end stuff from Korea or wherever. If this doesn't materialise and we don't see the US line back at least in small numbers around the time of the overseas line then I'd be worried. The brand has to get back out to the high st even if initially it's the overseas stuff just to get brand awareness back before hitting prospective purchasers with higher dollar axes.

They need to get it right this time though,last time round in the UK failure to meet expected delivery dates with the largest chain cost them dearly when it came to repeat orders.

[_xxx_]

That with the prestige line is the big thing, yes. It doesn't even have to be US-made, those great 80's pointy Kramers were also ESP-made.

I'd just call ESP and ask what the costs are for a new production run, ESP surely still have all the data. Might be the most cost-effective solution.

Those new asian floyds feel and sound great in their own right, I wouldn't mind having them. I have two axes with those and have been playing the shite out of them for over a year, they are still like on day one. The only thing they need to fix therre is the arm collar, it is made of some softer material so you can't tighten the arm completely so it's firm but it "slides" like with the schaller made ones. I hope you know what I mean, dunno how to describe it better.

[VooDoo666]

It's intersting to see all the comments / views here on Don's thread, if you do a quick search you'll see many of the same views going back a good few years. The recent beak Pacer Imp should IMO have been the axe to get out there, Gibson by nature is pretty conservative and the recent downturn worldwide isn't exactly going to make them feel comfortable about pushing one of their acquisitions out all across the high street.

At this moment in time the only thing that would make sense to me would be for a controlled perceived 'prestige' line to run alongside the higher volume lower end stuff from Korea or wherever. If this doesn't materialise and we don't see the US line back at least in small numbers around the time of the overseas line then I'd be worried. The brand has to get back out to the high st even if initially it's the overseas stuff just to get brand awareness back before hitting prospective purchasers with higher dollar axes.

They need to get it right this time though,last time round in the UK failure to meet expected delivery dates with the largest chain cost them dearly when it came to repeat orders.



DING DING DING!!!!! We have a winner! You are right on the money.

And a little something to think about the delay since shutting down Yo. The guitar business as a whole has taken a dive in this economy. Almost every brand out there has laid off 30% or more of it's workforce. With Kramer dropping a whole new line in Sept., it is quite ambitious and one could imagine took alot of proving to get Gibson to let it even happen when the money is tighter than ever.

[Chester73]

Including a choice of Duncan &/or DiMarzio pickups would be a good start too, I have the 'Korean' OFR on my Gunslinger, which is now over a year old, & it's holding up ok. I also have a German OFR on my Jackson & the arm 'wobbles' a lot more than the arm on the korean floyd, this one of those things that can be quite annoying at times! Bring back the Proaxe & the Nightswan, although Buddy Blaze might not be too happy about that!

[TBDREE]

I'd like to see a comeback too but with the current offerings you wont see it. Kramer also has to overcome the stigma attached to it because of the 80s. No other guitar is synonomous with the 80s like Kramers are. Yes jackson and charvel etc are but they are nothing like the kramers were back then.. Bringing back kramer with the old stuff is like re issuing spandex pants and big hair... It aint easy!!!

Another issue they suffer from imho, is the small neck sizes. R2 works for some but not alot of players. Jackson,charvel and the other shredder guitars have bigger necks. Les Pauls arent known for small necks and they are legendary. Why does Kramer insist on R2 only??? I dunno. Maybe I will never know.

Issue 3 they deal with is ROCK IS DEAD!!!!!!!! Some rock bands are doing ok but hip hop is where the cd money is going. I hate hip hop but if I was a label owner that is where my focus would be. Alot of kids dont care for rock anymore. Alot of the young uns are more into video games and other forms on entertainment these days. Oh well my 2 cents.

[amerturk]

All nice comments and takes on this, but it comes down to one thing.....a simple drive thru window.

Sometimes it's the small changes that make the biggest point.

[brokrguy]

The REAL question is:

How many more threads just like this one will we see before the September kick-off of new Kramers...? A couple of weeks ago I predicted 2 but with the number and length of the posts in this latest "New Kramers" thread, I am raising my prediction to 4.

Hang in there, Kevin...you're never gonna make EVERYONE happy. Personally, I think the release of NEW Kramers (not RI's) in this economy is the strongest sign for the brand that any of us could hope for.

:thumbsup

[jumbowolfe]

Rock is dead? Seen any Nickelback CD sales lately? Buck Cherry? Shinedown?

Even Dream Theater's latest CD debuted at number 6 on the charts, and they are a prog rock band!

Rock is far from dead, thats all perception and old timers syndrome. There are MANY bands out there outside of hip hop and pop. As evidenced by the NAMM show this year, about every manufacturer had at least one guitar in their line with a Floyd - and these are brands that did not have Floyds over the last 10 years in their offerings. Even Gibson has a Floyd equipped Paul production model. That says something, that says rock is back, and thank you Guitar Hero for that!

As stated above, its tough for every manufacturer right now, when people loose the extra income and are just trying to make ends meet, buying that 5th Les Paul or 15th Kramer isn't high on the priority list - much less a brand new guitar. Kevin and the guys are taking a stab at something different much like Schecter did. Is there room for yet another? Who konws, it all depends on marketing and how far Gibson is willing to go with pushing the new stuff.





I'd like to see a comeback too but with the current offerings you wont see it. Kramer also has to overcome the stigma attached to it because of the 80s. No other guitar is synonomous with the 80s like Kramers are. Yes jackson and charvel etc are but they are nothing like the kramers were back then.. Bringing back kramer with the old stuff is like re issuing spandex pants and big hair... It aint easy!!!

Another issue they suffer from imho, is the small neck sizes. R2 works for some but not alot of players. Jackson,charvel and the other shredder guitars have bigger necks. Les Pauls arent known for small necks and they are legendary. Why does Kramer insist on R2 only??? I dunno. Maybe I will never know.

Issue 3 they deal with is ROCK IS DEAD!!!!!!!! Some rock bands are doing ok but hip hop is where the cd money is going. I hate hip hop but if I was a label owner that is where my focus would be. Alot of kids dont care for rock anymore. Alot of the young uns are more into video games and other forms on entertainment these days. Oh well my 2 cents.

[sieteML]

i really think they should go the way ESP did and make metal guitars. thats what a lot of younger brands are looking for

[KRAMATIME]

hey kevin,
im with you 100%.
i have done design and marketing for a few heavy hitters.
i dont know what postion you hold with kramer and i thank you for the info you share with us here.
i also respect that you can only say so much.
still the fact of the matter is that from a marketing stand point the way this plan has been put into action is not good.
you dont just shut things down for eight months without the ability to sell guitars during the transition.
for the general public looking for a kramer there is almost no info.
the kramer site has no info as to what is coming,and even many of the dealers have been in the dark.
look,whatever the master plan is i agree,in this economy im sure it did take some arm twisting to get any plan in motion.
before the closing of the yo site a surplus of inventory should have been built up to cover at least a few months while the new line up was getting put in place.
there should have been some guitars to sell.and there should have been another run of imperials to give the dealers some stock.
and im sorry,but on my watch there is no way i would have left the kramer website the way its been for the past seven months.
that site should be kramers bench mark for info.
instead this forum is really the only place to get any info.
and a lot of people looking for a kramer only know to go to the website.
i would have kept that site buzzing with news and constant hints as to whats coming.
its called creating a buzz.
something is wrong when a consumers main source of info about a product comes from an employee posting on a forum.
and i say that with all do respect to kevin.
if not for his info we would really be in the dark.
anyway,a bad start does not mean a bad finish.
im rooting hard for gibson and kramer,and all the kramer employees to suceed.im in retail also and its been tough on everybody.
when this new kramer business plan finally drops i hope it comes out strong,because in the end its how you finish that counts.:thumbsup

[_xxx_]

R2 works for some but not alot of players. Jackson,charvel and the other shredder guitars have bigger necks. Les Pauls arent known for small necks and they are legendary. Why does Kramer insist on R2 only??? I dunno. Maybe I will never know.

You're wrong, while those necks may feel bigger due to the flat board and different shaping, Jackson/Charvel neck have exactly the same size as a Strat neck, so do Kramers. And they all also had some R5 necks to choose from, but not many people like that.

[stunt double]

i think its worth sharing my buying experience. i'm 41 and remember kramer's glory days, but had no idea they were back until i randomly stumbled on the 422 on MF. at the $250 price i knew i wanted to buy it right then. so i went to kramer's website, found a local dealer 20 min away in niagara falls, and called them. they had NO kramers in stock. zero. he offered to order it for me, and i told him i could do that myself and get it shipped to my door, so he dropped his price to $220 (plus tax) if i ordered from him. what a missed chance, i would have gladly paid $250 if it was in stock, not to mention that they're $320 online now, and i'd still probably buy it. if i was a dealer, i would have made a killing with that guitar when it was priced so low

[The Rossness]

I own 2 of the Charvel USA production guitars, the Slime green San Dimas and the burnt orange SoCal. Maybe I can share my insight with you.

First off, when I was looking at getting my charvel (the first one), I looked at the Pacer, but it cost even more than the charvel which was a turnoff. The Charvel's are very easy to get below list price. I paid $825 for my SD1 and $725 of the socal. If you want a Kramer comeback, price should be your first issue. They should cost less than what it cost to buy a charvel and a hardshell case should be included. I'd shoot for $900.

Secondy, you have to figure out what kind of hardware it will come with. The Korean made floyd is excellent. It stays in tune great on my Charvels. I just sold my BCR gunslinger reissue and it had the same trem. Again, no problems at all. I would save money by getting cheaper pots and using house PU's, or maybe something by GFS if Jay would give Kramer a deal. Also skimp on the tuners!

Third- Don't follow Charvel and offer black and a limited color. If it were me, I'd do their whole quarterly color thing, but instead of black, I'd only have one color per model per 3 month cycle. I would offer it with both a maple and rosewood board.

4th- Since it was already done, Bring back the 1984 with the graphics and the JS reissue. Also do something charvel doesn't do and reissue the voyager.

Lastly I would try to sign as many artist's to endorse the relaunch of kramer as I could. ESP has a ton of artist sig models and people recognize ESP because the artists they like play them. While signing old school type guys like Casey and Sachel is a step in the right direction, nothing would say COMBACK more than getting a huge name player (i.e.- Alexi Lahio, John Petrucci, Lynch) to strictly endorse Kramer. They should look for a modern player because they shouldn't rely on nostalgia alone. I'm a young guy and have no nostalgia for the good ole' days of Charvel. I bought the guitars because they destroyed everything at their price point. Kramer really needs a big name modern guitarist to sell the axes.

Hope this helps.

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs171.snc1/6414_524308989095_67402512_31173721_3869471_n.jpg
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs004.snc1/4153_522612199475_67402512_31092955_6682590_n.jpg

[Kostas Dee]

I have read all the replies and they were all very interesting.
Thing is that Kramer's flame is still burning and thinking of all the issues etc thats a big deal.

I never thought in buying a new Kramer but it crossed my mind to purchase a new Charvel..Why?

Thats the root of the problem,lack of advertising,lack of endorsment plus they are more pricey.

Those signs shows that Gibson never really wanted to give a boost to Kramer legacy even though there are millions of dedicated Kramer fans..
Just an opinion.

[KRAMATIME]

Hey there rossness,
glad you like your charvels.
as i said before i had a red san dimas,not a bad guitar at all.
but did it destroy everything else? not at all.
the pacer imperial is a much better guitar in so many areas.
it can get so many more great rock tones,its a higher quality guitar by a long shot.
and as far as bang for the buck its hard to beat.
now mind you im also a big charvel fan.
my friend has two of the new charvels and we have done many tests of both guitars.
the pacer wins hands down.
also,its not true that you have to pay full price for the pacer imperial.
i have one of only six made in trans red and i did not pay full price for it.
so,for less then the price of a charvel with a MIM neck i got a much higher quality guitar with better sounding p/u's,real floyd,better hardware,you could also almost call it a custom because its one of only about six made in that color,and a hard shell case included,not just a gig bag.
you tell me what the better deal is.
also,dont take me wrong here,a MIM neck is not a bad thing.
im also a big fender fan and my mexican strat is a great guitar.
the charvels are decent.
the pacer imperial takes things to the level of a $2500 custom shop guitar.

[Pacer Guy]

Kramatime, you must have been reading my mind :)
I also own a new Pacer Imperial, and up until recently I also was the owner of a Charvel San Dimas.
My thoughts are the same as your's. The Imperial is a superior guitar, and I liked the Charvel :thumbsup So I'm not knocking the Charvel, but the Imperial is a better guitar in my opinion. Far superior hardware, the fit and finish is excellent, and the hardshell case was a bonus :thumbsup As you stated, the Imperial's can be bought for less than list. I didn't pay full price for my Imperial either. Deals are out there just as the deals for the Charvels are out there.

Here was my review of the two :thumbsup

http://www.kramerforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30383

[KRAMATIME]

Hi pacer guy,
thats a great review!
i dont know how i missed that.
we sure are on the same page!
thanks for sharing the review:thumbsup

[The Rossness]

Hey there rossness,
glad you like your charvels.
as i said before i had a red san dimas,not a bad guitar at all.
but did it destroy everything else? not at all.
the pacer imperial is a much better guitar in so many areas.
it can get so many more great rock tones,its a higher quality guitar by a long shot.
and as far as bang for the buck its hard to beat.
now mind you im also a big charvel fan.
my friend has two of the new charvels and we have done many tests of both guitars.
the pacer wins hands down.
also,its not true that you have to pay full price for the pacer imperial.
i have one of only six made in trans red and i did not pay full price for it.
so,for less then the price of a charvel with a MIM neck i got a much higher quality guitar with better sounding p/u's,real floyd,better hardware,you could also almost call it a custom because its one of only about six made in that color,and a hard shell case included,not just a gig bag.
you tell me what the better deal is.
also,dont take me wrong here,a MIM neck is not a bad thing.
im also a big fender fan and my mexican strat is a great guitar.
the charvels are decent.
the pacer imperial takes things to the level of a $2500 custom shop guitar.

So where can I pick up a new pacer for $800 bucks or less?

[KRAMATIME]

well,i think rt1 music has one pacer left in the rare trans-red color.
i dont know what he could do for you on the price as there are no more to be found.
and i just wanted to point out that charvel dealers
are not selling the good colors for $800 either.
try getting a polar white style 1 for $800.
i paid $849 for my red san dimas last year when they where easy to come by.
if a certain style or color is harder to come by a dealer is not gonna give it away of course.

[sieteML]

get Matt Heafy from Trivium to endorse Kamer. i dont know but i think hes with Epiphone right now

[EVHSHREDDERF1000]

i wish kramer would come back im only sixteen i just got a kramer f1000 and i love playing the VH stuff, but if gibson isnt going to do anything with kramer why not just sell the rights ya know its just a waste. for a while when music-yo was still going and they had the pacer, baretta and 1984 i kept savin my money for one and one day checked back and it was gone WTH!!! A WASTE MAN. they should sell the right to esp and see what happens

[PacerMedic]

I disagree with the poster urging Kramer to "Cheap out" on their high-end product. I have, and am willing to pay a premium for a top of the line axe. To me, an American Kramer is defined by its components; Schaller tuners, OFR, Duncan pups, etc... Everybody offers their own rip-off version of that hardware to this day; there is nothing wrong with offering the best rather than the immitation.

[The Rossness]

I disagree with the poster urging Kramer to "Cheap out" on their high-end product. I have, and am willing to pay a premium for a top of the line axe. To me, an American Kramer is defined by its components; Schaller tuners, OFR, Duncan pups, etc... Everybody offers their own rip-off version of that hardware to this day; there is nothing wrong with offering the best rather than the immitation.

If you want to pay a lot, just order a custom shop axe. I don't have a tone of money and I want the most bang for my buck. I could care less about what the name is on the hardware as long as it works properly. And if you really want better hardware, you can always make upgrades.

[PacerMedic]

If you want to pay a lot, just order a custom shop axe. I don't have a tone of money and I want the most bang for my buck. I could care less about what the name is on the hardware as long as it works properly. And if you really want better hardware, you can always make upgrades.


That's not the spirit of what Kramer was. The American line stood for top shelf at less than custom shop price (by a thousand bucks, easily). You didn't have to upgrade anything because it was already there. Nothing wrong with keeping that philosophy for the top of the line models. There are plenty of lines that have models you are describing, including Kramer already.

The Pacers in the 80's listed at $1400 and retailed for $950 with a hardshell case. That's not expensive by today's standards even. A Pacer retro model retailing at 1200 bones is not in line with a CS Jackson. You're gonna have to pony up another 1 to 3 grand for one of those and it ain't the hardware that's causing the prices on those to shoot-up.

[Kostas Dee]

You got a point here PM,;)

[Jackolas]

How about getting them in shops? Actually on display...

The Striker is a great example of a fantastic budget (in price) guitar that pushes well above it's price tag. Use that as the flagship model here.

As it is now people are having to take a gamble if they haven't played/seen a Kramer in person before.

Mid-high end to High end wallet openers, Baretta and Pacer. Reissues of the 1984/5 available in red with a maple neck, black with a rosewood neck.

Go from there...

Sounds good to me... :toast

[Rick S]

If you don't have a ton of money and don't care about the name on the hardware why not just build your own. Way more bang for the buck and alot less time to waste on waiting for a cheap guitar that says Kramer on it.


If you want to pay a lot, just order a custom shop axe. I don't have a tone of money and I want the most bang for my buck. I could care less about what the name is on the hardware as long as it works properly. And if you really want better hardware, you can always make upgrades.

[amerturk]

Make it simple man. Offer an 84, 85, Imperial and just for kicks a Special. That's it and nothing more. Forget the stirkers. Offer the lumber listed not as reissues but something like "1985 Kramer Baretta" Pick up where the old number left off. This time start with the letter "I" then "J" etc..

[TrueBlueLS]

I say they just need to offer a Baretta, Nightswan, and Pacer.

[jumbowolfe]

I can report straight up, my Pacer Imperial kicks the ever loving shit out of the "USA" production Charvels. The neck is better made, the fretwork is 100% better, the Pacer has Schaller tuners, German Floyd, and overall is more of a custom shop instrument than the Charvels.

I also have it on good authority that Charvel is pulling a "Kramer" and those necks are actually hecho in Mexico.

PLUS - the neckpocket routing really pisses me off on the Production Charvels. The angle is too sharp, thereby making Floyd setups kind of nasty coompared to the Pacer. The tone is tinty, whereas, the tone on the Pacers is warm and rounded.

The $300-400 price difference in the two models is very noticeable. However, I give Charvel credit because its a decent guitar for the money, and their marketing and their influence behind their brand overall is a way better effort than Kramer (no offense to Kevin, but moreso, the investment and the understanding of what the Charvel brand means).

[KrameRemarK]

If you want to pay a lot, just order a custom shop axe. I don't have a tone of money and I want the most bang for my buck. I could care less about what the name is on the hardware as long as it works properly. And if you really want better hardware, you can always make upgrades.

If you want to pay as little as possible and get "the most bang for your buck" by a $50 second/third/forth hand crap guitar and write "Kramer" on the headstock with a black marker. If you don't like it, "you can always make upgrades" to it too. :thumbsup ...... it will save you a lot of money. ;)

Some of us appreciate overall quality in a guitar, including its hardware and components (and with the Kramer brand .... and not a custom made axe). We also realise that this quality comes at a price. This is a fine line though, as the price has to be justified by the quality, quantity, where it was made, etc, etc. and at the end of the day, each individual will determine if the guitar justifies the $'s. However high end, top quality guitars should still be offered.

So I hear what you are saying. There are requirements for those of us who want cheap, low, middle, top, elite and custom ranges of guitars. It is hard to please all. I believe Kramer still needs to offer quality USA made axes in its range and get these marketed, out there in shops, endorsed by KNOWN musicians and noticed!, otherwise the name will continue to head south .... which is a real damn shame.

Marketing costs :money's, but without an effective marketing strategy, the best ideas and products will struggle to get off the ground in any great way or will take a lot longer for them to. The brand is a big selling point IMHO and to damage the brand, will only impacts sales.

[slashrox]

I'm all for Kramer coming back and reissuing the classic models...but PLEASE also bring back the '84 Reissue in Bullseye Black :thumbsup :drool

[stunt double]

i wonder who has the rights to the 5150 model?? did ed take that with him????

[amerturk]

If my memory serves correct, there was never a 5150 model. There were guitars made for him by Unk, but it wasn't a "model" For the most part, the 5150 is just a baretta with some numbered stickers and some paint....the paint scheme and numbers belong to Ed...

[DavidL.Roth]

All I want is re-issue models.
Nightswan and barettas, pointy and banana.

-Dave

[sieteML]

kramer need to do a stagemaster reissue

[PacerMedic]

kramer need to do a stagemaster reissue

HELLACIOUS IDEA!!!! :toast