Help me get a "big boy amp"

[jonasaberg]

Okay, here's the deal.
I've been seriously thinking about "graduating from solid state university" and getting a quality tube amp. As my living room practice amp needs are pretty well covered with my current rig, the tubes would be for my future gigging life.

My plan is to put together a hair metal cover band so the amp should be able to...no...it should excel in that tonal area. As looking cool was a big part of it back then, I'd kind of prefer a halfstack (or a head and two 2x12 cabs). I'd like it to be fairly versatile as far as venues go, ie I want to be able to play a club or small outdoor gigs and not having to change my setup. I probably won't be playing Wembley or Madison Square Garden anytime soon though.

Budget-wise, well, there isn't really one. I figured I'd try to find out what kind of options there are first, narrow it down and go from there. I'd love to be able to keep it below or just slightly over 1000€ though, just because I'd feel weird buying an amp that's more expensive than my car (1600€ used btw). I've been looking at Marshall JCM800, trying to figure out what they go for on the local used market. Haven't seen a 50W head but the 100W models are easier to find, which brings me to my next question.

For some reason, 100W seems to be a bit overkill. If I understand it correctly, they also have more components and tubes to replace. But then I read something about decibels and how a 50W really isn't that much quieter than 100W. So the difference is not so much in volume but more about tone, right? I won't be using clean tones an awful lot, just to play the intro to "Dead or Alive" or "18 and Life"...that kind of thing.

On my short list right now: Marshall JCM800 (not sure which model would be the best) and Laney AOR50 (I heard there was a 30W version as well so maybe that would be ideal, I dunno). I've heard these two and tone-wise they are definately what I want. The Laney's seem pretty hard to find though.

So, if you were me, what would you look for?

[_xxx_]

JCM800 sounds just right, I'd go with a 50-watter.

[pel666]

If you go Ceriatone, let me know...I can help out and can talk mods as well (as you might know I am a non profit contact and warranty point for Nik).

They have the 50W JCM800 2203 and the 50W Silver Jubilee 2550 which are the kind of amp you seem to be looking for :thumbsup

[jonasaberg]

I think I might be way out of my league building my own amp, even from parts. ;)
I think I'll leave the building of amps to the pros for now.

[Spadeace]

I might be in the market of selling my JCM 800 2205 Jonas, if you're interested let me know :thumbsup

[pel666]

I think I might be way out of my league building my own amp, even from parts. ;)
I think I'll leave the building of amps to the pros for now.

Hi Jonas,

Ceriatone delivers the full built Cab package on the 50W JCM800 incl. tubes for less than E800 :thumbsup

http://www.ceriatone.com/productSubPages/BSJCM800_2204/BSJCM800_2204Cabinet.htm

[jonasaberg]

Ceriatone delivers the full built Cab package on the 50W JCM800 incl. tubes for less than E800 :thumbsup

http://www.ceriatone.com/productSubPages/BSJCM800_2204/BSJCM800_2204Cabinet.htm

Ah now that's more like it:thumbsup
Wasn't aware of that. That's definately an option then.

[jonasaberg]

I might be in the market of selling my JCM 800 2205 Jonas, if you're interested let me know :thumbsup

That sounds interesting as well.
Still trying to figure out what kind of options I have here though. What's the difference between a 2204and a 2205?

[pel666]

2204 = Master Volume lead 50W
2205 = Split channel Reverb 50W

[bkeen]

I would go with a 50 or 60 watter. Try out a TSL 60 if you get the chance. I gigged 2204s through out the 80s and use the TSL 60 now and am very happy with it. Also, If you must have a separate head, pick up a 2x12 cab first and then see where your career takes you. A half stack does look cool but it will get distroyed hauling it around not to mention your back!

:thumbsup

[kb7010]

2204 = Master Volume lead 50W
2205 = Split channel Reverb 50W

Sorry Mies.. that info is WRONG..!!!

not sure about the 2204

but I have a 2205 <-- one of the best Marshall EVER made..!!!! :thumbsup

the 2205 has the separate volume/dirt for clean and dirt..!!!!!!

and 50W is more than enough.. 100W ( even though you are correct ) but you will NEVER get that amp past 3 or 4 ( meaning a 2205 50W :nono well at least I never could.. ie: stage volume way to high.. even a full stack was 95% of the time a :nono so I would just use the bottom as a dummy.. still do every once in a great while :D )

I just won a JCM-900 dual reverb 50 Watt head of fleabay.. I love that thing..!!! ( the JCM800 I bought new and it still looks brand new.. as Bruce said.. "that stuff WILL GET marked up when you gig it out" so I ALWAYS took my amp and cabs with ME..!!!! wife needs Comp.. I will EDIT...!!!!!

EDIT: ANYWAY.. I really like the JCM900 Dual reverb 50W head.. I am running it with a Boogie 2x12 cabinet.. ( Bruce is correct again lol ) 90% of the time... what I did.. was , I just kept low bidding $500.00 on fleabay until I won a 900 head..!!!! wOOt..!!! ie: If I didn't like it.. I could put a BIN and get my $$$$$ right back..

so bottom line.. even though I HAVE NOT done a side by side.. I think you might (<-- keyword ) be happier with a 900 over a 800 ( 2205 ) ..????????

just going on the songs you posted and it sounds like "big hair " music .. so a 900 might be the way to go..???? they are cheaper in price and more of them.. that I do know..!!!!! ( as per fleabay )

just my .02 for ya.. but I have been there and still doing it :)

[pel666]

You confirmed yourself what I actually said ;)

2205 is basically a 2203 with dual channel and reverb...where the 2203 is Master Volume lead only.

The 2550 is all of that, channel switching, FX loop etc but then without reverb...

Schematics can be found here:

http://www.drtube.com/marshall.htm :thumbsup

[kb7010]

I might be in the market of selling my JCM 800 2205 Jonas, if you're interested let me know :thumbsup

there it is..!!! :headbang :thumbsup :headbang

[kb7010]

You confirmed yourself what I actually said ;)

2205 is basically a 2203 with dual channel and reverb...where the 2203 is Master Volume lead only.

The 2550 is all of that, channel switching, FX loop etc but then without reverb...

Schematics can be found here:

http://www.drtube.com/marshall.htm :thumbsup

Sorry bud.. misunderstood what you where saying..!!!!! so have a :toast on me... ;)

EDIT: AS PER SITE Mies put up.. " The Dual Reverb amps were based on the JCM800 2205/2210 amps. " that info was in the JCM900 Amps.. ( dual reverb hi-gain head )

[bkeen]

Actuall a 2205 is a 50 watt and a 2203 is a 100 watt. The 2204 is 50 watt.

And if he would like a 900 over an 800 for the 80s style then he should also look up a TSL which is basically a 900 with a third gain stage. ;) :D

And now that we have him totally confused....

:thumbsup

[kb7010]

And now that we have him totally confused....



lol.. good point.. :D :D :happy1 :happy1 :D :D

[bkeen]

You see, the secret to the TSL is the Flux Capacitor. It allows you to go back in time to a JCM 800 or in to the future for the JVM or in the middle to the JCM 900. Unfortunatly it can't go back to the JMP because of the Space Time Continuum. :-x :D

:thumbsup

[kb7010]

You see, the secret to the TSL is the Flux Capacitor. It allows you to go back in time to a JCM 800 or in to the future for the JVM or in the middle to the JCM 900. Unfortunatly it can't go back to the JMP. :-x :D

:thumbsup


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
:urock Bruce.. good stuff..!!!!

[jonasaberg]

You see, the secret to the TSL is the Flux Capacitor. It allows you to go back in time to a JCM 800 or in to the future for the JVM or in the middle to the JCM 900. Unfortunatly it can't go back to the JMP because of the Space Time Continuum. :-x :D

:thumbsup

:D
Man, all this is getting a bit confusing.
Maybe I should just strike a deal with Spadeace and be done with it :jump

[Spadeace]

I played mine at 88 bpm yesterday, dunno about the mph though :bong

[thecharmingnorth]

jonas, if your gonna get a marshall- go all the way and get a 100watter! you will not be disappointed..even set at low volumes for bedroom level playing, these things are the rolls royce of amplification. i have played through a few tube amps in my time and marshalls are pure bliss..:headbang
currently i have a JCM 2000 dsl 100 and this thing is probably the best diverse tube amp i have used.
JCM800 and JVM all rolled into one.:yikes

bottom line--Go all the way with a marshall!

[jonasaberg]

I don't know man, 100W seems like an awful lot.
I'd definately need a master volume then.
They do seem to be easier to find.

Spadeace; Me and my girlfriend are buying a new couch in July so after that I'll have a better idea what my finances look like. Cheap couch=more amp money :)

If you decide to let it go before that, drop me a pm anyway and give me a heads up on it. :thumbsup

[Spadeace]

I don't know man, 100W seems like an awful lot.
I'd definately need a master volume then.
They do seem to be easier to find.

Spadeace; Me and my girlfriend are buying a new couch in July so after that I'll have a better idea what my finances look like. Cheap couch=more amp money :)

If you decide to let it go before that, drop me a pm anyway and give me a heads up on it. :thumbsup

No worries Jonas, im not quite sure about it yet, but as of now i'm looking into the whole rack thing :toast

[_xxx_]

You might want to look for a bigger shop where you can do a live comparison of many amps. Easiest way to find out what sort of tone suits you best.

And while you're there, try the Line6 SpiderValve 40W combo. It may just make you forget about all the "old" amps after you played it.

[ullathorne]

Have you thought about how your gonna move the Marshall Stack? Will you have a Van? Or car. Will you get it in your car??

Next point and more importantly. How is your back:D Im telling ya. You will soon get pissed off carring that thing around with you. A 4x12 and Head is a lot of weight. Make sure you have helpful band mates who will help load and unload that stuff.

A JCM-2000 DSL 50w Head. Is what i'd go for. You dont need the 100w heads. A 50w on full tilt will melt the place. Its LOUD:yikes

Ask Mr Schenker;)

All the best

Andy.:toast

[jonasaberg]

I do have a car and my back is a-ok. I lift weights four times per week. Lifting a 4x12 cab can't be a lot heavier than doing deadlifts with 120kgs ;)

That being said, I could probably go for a 2x12 speaker cab instead. That would still be up there on the "looking cool scale" :D

[ullathorne]

Its not only the weight. Its the shape. Cabs being lifted on your own, can be awkward and will put strain on your back.

[jonasaberg]

Its not only the weight. Its the shape. Cabs being lifted on your own, can be awkward and will put strain on your back.

I hear ya about the shape.
I've helped my sister move a couple of times over the years and I have always hated her couch because it's so incredibly awkward to lift.
Luckily, it broke a few weeks ago so I won't have to lift that again.

I do already have a 1x12 cab, 8ohm 100W Jensen speaker. Would it be possible to just get another 1x12 and create a "mini stack" to use with, let's say the JCM 2205 head?

[Spadeace]

Shouldn't be a problem as long as their ohms are compatible :thumbsup

[Pacer Guy]

Mini Stacks are cool :)
http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq336/pcrdlx/016-2-1.jpg
Not quite the visual as two 4x12's, but sure a lot simpler to move :thumbsup
The Blackhearts are rated for 75 watts. My Classic 50/50 is rated at 50 per channel, so they worked out great for my needs... don't sound to bad either :thumbsup

[TBDREE]

I dont know how common these are where you live but the Carvin X100b amp is a nice rig. They arent pricey either. The Laney amps will get a good marshallesque tone too.

If it were me Id go with the cieratone amp with a 2x12.. Trust me it will be plenty loud enough!

[jonasaberg]

I've never really paid any attention to Carvin amps. I'll have a look around and try to figure out what kind of prices they go for.

[jonasaberg]

Okay I had pretty much set my mind on a Laney AOR50 because you can find them relatively cheap. However, apparently there is a reason for that as Laney seems to have cut some corners in the production, thus making them unreliable. I really don't want that.

If I'm going to be spending some serious dough on a tube amp I want something that won't crap out on me. In short; I'm willing to pay for quality. In that regard Ceriatone (perhaps the silver jubilee model) seems to be a very good choice. Hand built, warranty, but obviously a bit more expensive (the price itself isn't bad but with shipping, customs fees and VAT the price gets pretty high). I would cost me roughly 200€ more than a used Marshall JCM800 *if* I find it locally and don't have to pay shipping.

On the other hand, lately I've started thinking about having gear that I can easily unload IF I need to. I do not plan on selling but if something comes up (you never know what life throws at you) it's nice to know that you can unload some equipment for cash. I do not know if Ceriatone would be equal to Marshall in that sense.

I'm also not aware of what kind of quality 80's Marshall JCM800's were. So basically I'm weighing (what I perceive to be) Ceriatone quality against Marshall's resale value.

[Spadeace]

Ceriatone will always be lower in the "mainstream" market, however if you're selling to enthusiasts it's probably all good :thumbsup

[Dersu Uzala]

So, if you were me, what would you look for?

Mesa Boogie Mark III of course. A 60w version would do, but those lack SimulClass. I'd definitely try to get a SimulClass version first and try it out. You can play on all (4) 6L6 power tubes or mix 2 6L6 with 2 EL34. Most of quality 'hair-metal' was actually recorded on these. They still hold value too but are easy to find. In USA, that is. You definitely want a version with 'export' transformer.

[Mr.Cool]

Tubes are cool but if I may ask? is wrong with solid state? I could blindfold just about anyone crank one of the Marshalls then hit on the Vetta and you could not tell the difference.

I think "Tube Tone" is overrated........

A full stack may look cool but chances are playing out your going to mic it. Solid state plug the s.o.b. straight into the mix.....

I've owned/own the 2204,2205 Tsl's,jvm's & even the lead mosfet & monoblocks... Now all I ever haul is a vetta combo.

[Dersu Uzala]

Agreed, but the premise of the challenge might be inaccurate.

Blindfold a musician while he or she is playing. Swap solid state and tube amp of your choosing, both preferably of highest quality. Ask him or her which tone they like better when they are blindfolded. Some might actually prefer transistors.

On another note, I played Vetta and it's ok. This is a modeling amp, so even though it's solid state it's a different business. I owned a GK 250ML. Plugged it into beat up Peavey 4x12 cab and I was blown away. I still remember my buddy's H/H 212 combo back in the seventies. I want that amp.

Then there's the tube.

[jonasaberg]

Do I *need* a tube head? Probably not.
Part of it all is probably "hero worship" :D
I could probably get by with what I have if I mic it to be completely honest. Then again, I didn't really *need* a pink bengal guitar either...but I definately *wanted* one ;)

[Dersu Uzala]

Well, unfortunately, I have no clue as if H/H 212 are currently being made, I'm pretty sure Gallien Krueger is a 'no go'. Although they have been 'promising' a 250 reissue. Never panned out I guess. Same goes for Sunn I think. Which leaves us with LineSix. I use their stuff every day. Well, almost. It's just a dildo really. It's not the real thing. Oops.

[_xxx_]

Blindfold a musician while he or she is playing. Swap solid state and tube amp of your choosing, both preferably of highest quality. Ask him or her which tone they like better when they are blindfolded. Some might actually prefer transistors.

I highly doubt it. You can tell them apart after the very first muted "thud" on high volume.

[warbrill]

I would go with a 50 or 60 watter. Try out a TSL 60 if you get the chance. I gigged 2204s through out the 80s and use the TSL 60 now and am very happy with it. Also, If you must have a separate head, pick up a 2x12 cab first and then see where your career takes you. A half stack does look cool but it will get distroyed hauling it around not to mention your back!

:thumbsup
I would echo what Bruce said. When I bought my TSL 60, I bought a 2x12 (1936) with it. I have a 1960A as well, but find that there are venues where I really don't need the dispersion that the 1960A offers, and the 1936 keeps the sound in a more tight pattern. The TSL 60 is an excellent, quite versatile amp. For peace of mind, I invested in a nice rolling padded SKB case for mine. Not as expensive as a flight case, but offers good protection, and it has a retractible handle that makes moving the amp like rolling a small suitcase through the airport.

Another option would be a Mesa single rectifier head with a Mesa cab. I have the single rectifier Rectoverb 50, and the "modern" setting on channel two is actually a lot more overdrive than I ever need (never have used it on stage). The Lead boost is really nice too, because it doesn't change your sound, just adds dBs.

I personally like the sound of 6L6s a bit better overall, but when I'm playing outdoors, I love to bring the TSL 60 and the 1960A and crank 'er up.

The ability of the Mesa amps to use EL34s or 6L6s is nice, just by swapping the power tubes and changing the bias setting.

[Dersu Uzala]

The thing is, neither TSL series or Rectifier Series existed in the eighties. I understand he wants to emulate that sound. The hair metal sound. So it's either JCM or Mark series.

[jonasaberg]

The thing is, neither TSL series or Rectifier Series existed in the eighties. I understand he wants to emulate that sound. The hair metal sound. So it's either JCM or Mark series.

Exactly. When I start gigging I want to play hair metal songs...that's it. I want the amp to nail that sound.

[Keen Anthony]

A lot of pros used 100W amps live, but rolled them back to 50W for more control; Rudi Schenker (Scorpions) for example. You don't need a 100W. I'm really enjoying the sound of 50W and 75W Laney amps. I have a 15W Laney that I like to use for bedroom play, and it sounds great, even next to my JCM2000 DSL. JCMs are still my favorite, but I'm loving Marshall VMs too.

It's a very personal decision though. Do you need the amp's own natural distortion? I just got in the Vox Satchurator distortion pedal. I played it through a Roland Micro Cube set on its cleanest, and I loved it. It made me think that if I had a bigger solid state amp with more wattage and a real good clean, I'd be happy with the result. It was surprising to me.

[jonasaberg]

Well, I'd be okay with a pedal or two but I guess my goal is to come as close as possible to that tone with just the amp. Then I'd just have to use pedals to add chorus or reverb and maybe a boost for solos.

[Spadeace]

Most JCM's have built in reverb jonas, but chorus is always nice :funnel

[mrcrazyhimself]

You can't go wrong with an 80's JCM800 50 watter. I had an 84'. Sounded great. I had trouble getting a proper volume boost but the thing sounded awesome. You wouldn't regret it

[BeN5150]

I've heard that from a gain standpoint, the 2205s and 2210s are the kings of the JCM 800s

The other ones aren't near as loved.

If you go Marshall, go for a TSL or a DSL, best of everything marshall did.

[BeN5150]

I highly doubt it. You can tell them apart after the very first muted "thud" on high volume.

The problem some people have with tubes is that on a high gain setting, the notes seem to blend together and make a "mush," but the SS amps just have an odd clarity to them.

I personally could easily switch back to SS. I don't feel a whole lot of love for tube.

[Spadeace]

Like ben said, SS amps are said to have better attack and separation, but when you hit an open G chord with full tube saturation you'll forget all about that :jump

[_xxx_]

Ben: what Spadeace said :) Plug into a good Boggie or the violet Marshall anniversary on high gain and you forget the rest of the world :toast

[ferengi-bri]

5150II or 6506+. Way better than Marshall and way more reliable! Plus, it's what Ed uses.

[_xxx_]

ferengi - that's apples to oranges, but those are also two great amps.

If you like to keep your sound clear Boogie-style I can also recommend Peavey Triple XXX - they're like the recti sound-wise.

As for reliability, they all cook with water, anything else is just myths. Surely a $3k Soldano or such is built like a tank, but those below aren't much apart regardless of brand.

[BeN5150]

I'm pretty happy with the sound of my Peavey Ultra.

I'm not much of a marshall guy, and Boogies are a bit too "sterile" sounding to me, Peavey is a nice middle ground.

Not to say I would turn the others away at a good deal though. :D

But it also depends on what you're playing. To get a good "average" hair metal sound, a Marshall will do you dandy.

[Dersu Uzala]

The thing is you can get Mesa Boogie Mk III dirt cheap in the States. They are tone machines, very versatile, built like a tank. Very heavy, but you can get a head version alone or a 1x12" combo. This will nail 80-ties hair metal thing since probably half of the recordings were made on said amp and it's older siblings Mark IIC and IIC+ (the Holly Grail of all things amplifying).

[Red Neck 5150]

I don't think there is a Amp out there that I haven't played...Go with a PV 5150 Stack or Combo or PV 6505 or PV SC 212!!!!:thumbsup

[TrueBlueLS]

My vote is for the Peavey Ultra Plus. Everyone compares it to the XXX, but you should be able to find one in pretty good condition cheaper. It offers a "half power" switch to go the 60 watt route. I wouldn't bother with that though. Throw an EQ in the loop and it will scream. :thumbsup

[warbrill]

The thing is, neither TSL series or Rectifier Series existed in the eighties. I understand he wants to emulate that sound. The hair metal sound. So it's either JCM or Mark series.
But emulating the sound of a vintage amplifier does not necesarily presuppose buying the exact amp. I know a couple of people who wanted the sound of the early 1960s Standell amps, but there were vary few ever made, and you can emulate the Standell sound with a Roland Cube.

[warbrill]

A lot of pros used 100W amps live, but rolled them back to 50W for more control; Rudi Schenker (Scorpions) for example. You don't need a 100W. I'm really enjoying the sound of 50W and 75W Laney amps. I have a 15W Laney that I like to use for bedroom play, and it sounds great, even next to my JCM2000 DSL. JCMs are still my favorite, but I'm loving Marshall VMs too.

It's a very personal decision though. Do you need the amp's own natural distortion? I just got in the Vox Satchurator distortion pedal. I played it through a Roland Micro Cube set on its cleanest, and I loved it. It made me think that if I had a bigger solid state amp with more wattage and a real good clean, I'd be happy with the result. It was surprising to me.

That's an interesting lashup. For a while about three years ago, I was using a Roland Cube 30 as a preamp for a Fender Montreaux. I set the sound using the Cube, and used the preamp out to send the sound to the Fender's clean channel. All effects, overdrive, etc. came from the Cube, and the Fender just added volume (and a 12" speaker -- that's the only thing I don't like about the Cube 30 -- the 10" speaker). I've used my mid 60s Princeton Reverb mik'd through a Sunn Concert Lead, but that was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

[warbrill]

The problem some people have with tubes is that on a high gain setting, the notes seem to blend together and make a "mush," but the SS amps just have an odd clarity to them.

I personally could easily switch back to SS. I don't feel a whole lot of love for tube.

Over the years, I've owned lots of tube amps, and lots of SS amps, and what I've found is that I like both, each for its own particular qualities. Early in my career, I had whatever I could get cheap, including a bunch of 60s Fender tube amps (assorted Bandmasters, Bassmen, and the Princeton Reverb I still own), and an outstanding Standel bass amp that I wish I still had. In the late 70s, I switched over to Sunn solid state amps (Alpha, Betas, and a Concert Lead), and a Roland JC120. I gigged a Fender Montreax as my main stage amp for 20 years, and I still use it quite a bit. Many guys who have played through it swore it had to be a tube amp. It doesn't have amp modeling, but just can be dialed in really well. These days, I have both SS and tube Marshalls, SS and tube Fenders, and a Mesa (no SS!), but I'm not convinced there is one "right" amp type.
Oh, and all my bass amps are SS, but my main keyboard amp is tubes -- it's a Leslie!

[markshredder]

Until recently, I've always favoured the reliability of solid state amps - although I have owned 2 "hybrid" ones - a Laney Tube Fusion and a Marshall AVT - I was considering some sort of poweramp arrangement to amplify my Line 6 multi-fx. I decided to bite the bullet and go for a tube amp.

Last week I bought a second hand Mesa Single Rectifier, it's absolutley mint condition and was only £700 which I thought was too good to pass up. Although, I had to sell my old SS rig to fund it and currently don't have a cab right now for it... I tend to avoid second hand gear unless it's something collectable, but there was no way I'd consider paying the best part of £2k at the moment for an amp, so I think buying used was definitely the way to go.

[PacerMedic]

I can't believe that nobody has suggested this before now. No, you can not get true tube sound from a modeller; they are awesome tools for home recording and playing uncomplicated, live shows plugged direct to the board.

HOWEVER

Tube amps, when properly used will NOT have "mushy" gain - That's a common mistake of dialing in too much preamp gain and then cranking the power section. A tube amp is made to depend as much, if not more on it's tone coming from the power section of the amp. People don't talk about the flavor of 6L6's and EL34's because they sound so nice at bedroom/apartment levels.

You want a great metal tone from a JCM 800? go 3-4 on the pre and 6-7 on the post gain. You will get the definition and breakup you are after. Need more? GO back to the CLEAN channel and throw a TS9 in your signal chain (Why do you think they were so popular, and endure to this day?).

The other way to get screaming gain is to get Dan Torres, Reinhold Bogner or Mke Soldano to do their thing, but hell, you might as well buy on of their "off the shelf" amps by then!

The way around excruciating stage volumes back in the day was to create the equivalent of today's "sound guy cab". Since if you were a decent band, nobody bitched about the FOH levels except the guy on the board who was going batshit trying to achieve a good balance to the house mix. :happy1

We built 4'x4'x3' plywood road cases into which a 1960b with 2 sidewinders and 2 EVM12L's were loaded. In went the cab and 2 SM57's and a ton of blankies, the lid was latched firmly shut and there you have a box with 50-60% of the noise at full bore. This goes behind the backline or under the stage and direct to the board. Instant less-neurotic sound guy (seems you can never make them completely happy unless you let them bring their cat to the gig and the cat [nor us] was having none of that!). :lol

That is the way around having a 100 watt head and always worked in smaller venues. You got to keep your tone and got to play they again on future bookings. Moral of the story is you CAN throttle your amp without douching up the tone, but you CAN NOT magically grow watts for larger, or outdoor gigs! :toast

[warbrill]

Joel, your point about the relationship between the pre and post gain and the master is really well taken. You are correct; I find myself turning the pre up too much sometimes, then I don't like the sound; it has no clarity. By the way, that is true on solid state amps too; I use a 1981 Fender Montreaux for small venues, and the more I've used it over the years, the more I've boosted the post, and the less the pre. I can get definition between notes but plenty of squaring of the overtones for that upper midrange "push" that makes the notes sing but not squeal. Last Wednesday night, I was playing in a venue with a high ceiling, capacity about 150 (but nowhere near full), and I had the pre on 5, the post on 7, and the master on 5. (The Montreaux is about 75 watts in the 1x12 configuration.) Using a couple of Pacer Imperials, I got just the tone I wanted. Interestingly enough, this is almost exactly the settings I use on my single rectifier Mesa.

[smorgdonkey]

The thing is you can get Mesa Boogie Mk III dirt cheap in the States. They are tone machines, very versatile, built like a tank.

I would love to have one of those!

[pel666]

Joel, your point about the relationship between the pre and post gain and the master is really well taken. You are correct; I find myself turning the pre up too much sometimes, then I don't like the sound; it has no clarity. By the way, that is true on solid state amps too; I use a 1981 Fender Montreaux for small venues, and the more I've used it over the years, the more I've boosted the post, and the less the pre. I can get definition between notes but plenty of squaring of the overtones for that upper midrange "push" that makes the notes sing but not squeal. Last Wednesday night, I was playing in a venue with a high ceiling, capacity about 150 (but nowhere near full), and I had the pre on 5, the post on 7, and the master on 5. (The Montreaux is about 75 watts in the 1x12 configuration.) Using a couple of Pacer Imperials, I got just the tone I wanted. Interestingly enough, this is almost exactly the settings I use on my single rectifier Mesa.

It differs from amp to amp...I run my 36W with volume @ 9 and master @ 1 or 2....loud as hell, lot's of tone and certainly NOT muddy at all! When I get to powerchording it rocks like nothing else :thumbsup

I can easily imagine modern Tube amps would have the muddy problem, it's just a different construction and signal path...I am sure Pat would agree ;)

[warbrill]

It differs from amp to amp...I run my 36W with volume @ 9 and master @ 1 or 2....loud as hell, lot's of tone and certainly NOT muddy at all! When I get to powerchording it rocks like nothing else :thumbsup

I can easily imagine modern Tube amps would have the muddy problem, it's just a different construction and signal path...I am sure Pat would agree ;)

Let me make sure when you say "volume" you mean the same thing as I do. Many amps use "volume" as the post control, and something like "pre" or "input" as the pre. I used Sunn amps for a while in the late 70s, and they called pre "Drive." So when you say "volume" do you mean pre or post? (Note: Fender uses "volume" for post too.)

A few years ago, I used pre=7, post=7, master=3. Now it's more like pre=5, post=7, master=5, and the apparent compression and squaring of the overtones is controlled, along with the overall volume, by the volume pot on the guitar. The overall volume between the two settings is roughly equivalent on the two amps I mentioned above, but it's a noticeably cleaner sound overall. Of course, none of this applies to my Marshalls! ;)

[Mr.Cool]

I highly doubt it. You can tell them apart after the very first muted "thud" on high volume.

No sir I don't really think so. I have been one hell of a major tube snob for a long damn time & I can tweak every damn little nuance with the vetta lined into the laptop.

Now they have come out with this axe fx that just kills the f*cking world!

the combinations for tone are endless.

[_xxx_]

Well, you're free to think whatever you want :)

By the way I'm not a tube snob at all, I play hybrid myself and use all digital signal path in the studio. But still nothin sounds like a cranked-up tube amp, however you twist and turn it.

AxeFX is a great device for sure, but that's apples to oranges.